(November 25, 2013 at 11:21 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: No, I am deliberately saying that Mr Loftus is wrong and I'm explaining why.

What kinda stupid apologetics is that? Lemme help ya:

Holy Spirit inspires all knowledge of god, which is then interpreted in a cultural context.

You're welcome.

(November 26, 2013 at 1:12 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: [sigh]

Why was I arguing with you again when I was flirting with an intelligent, handsome atheist instead?

I didn't realize you were flirting with me.

As to Lion being deliberately obtuse, it's hard to tell with people like him.

Sugar, if I'd been flirting with you I'd have added a few sexy adjectives to the list.

It's obvious how Lion IRC is making a fool of himself. The more important question is why.

Most likely he is manufacturing an excuse for not attempting the Outsider's Test of Faith.

As I have said before of fundamentalists, he is afraid of his inner atheist.

---

A few people have asked where is the quiz. There is no quiz. The OTF is supposed to apply equally to all religions. You bring the same degree of skepticism to your own religion's miracles and doctrines that you do to other religions.

If you are a Christian, you probably doubt several claims in Islam: that the Mohammed rode a winged horse from Mecca to Jerusalem in one night, that it is permissible to have four wives, that you should pray five times a day facing in the direction of Mecca, etc.

So what about the claim that Jesus walked on water and later floated up into the air? What about the teaching that you should sell all that you have and give it to the poor?

(November 26, 2013 at 4:36 am)freedomfromfallacy Wrote:

(November 26, 2013 at 4:31 am)GodsRevolt Wrote: Really, did I miss something here?

Oh, how we have missed you here...

Aren't you a cutie. I missed you too.

---

Regarding the OP. This assumes that the believer has not already done this.

(November 26, 2013 at 11:51 am)xpastor Wrote: It's obvious how Lion IRC is making a fool of himself. The more important question is why.

...Most likely he is manufacturing an excuse for not attempting the Outsider's Test of Faith.

...A few people have asked where is the quiz. There is no quiz.

I'll be happy to take your test. I like tests.

Do I write the questions myself?

---

(November 26, 2013 at 7:12 am)xpastor Wrote:

(November 25, 2013 at 11:14 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Read it carefully. It says causally dependent.

The city where I live is NOT the CAUSE of my religion.
My parents are not the CAUSE of Abrahamic monotheism.

It does not say cultural conditions are the cause of your religion but rather that they are in large measure the cause of your adopting that particular religion....

Still not getting it are you?
The point is that if I lived in in Ur/Iraq or Bethlehem/Palestine in that case THEN I might be accused of adopting the culturally relevant religion.

But Jews in New York and Jews in Palestine live in vastly different cultures and yet they have the same ancient neolithic religion.

I didn't 'adopt' Abrahamic monotheism.
ABRAHAM did!
He is the cause and he is about as far away from me in distance and antiquity as you can get.

In terms of post modern culture - media, music, cuisine, Internet, commerce, zeitgeist, etc. - I am culturally closer to the atheists around here, than I am to Isaac or Ishmael.

(November 26, 2013 at 5:03 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: I'll be happy to take your test. I like tests.

Do I write the questions myself?

Yes, you write the questions yourself. If you don't question the pillars of your faith, then you are only fooling yourself.

---

(November 26, 2013 at 5:03 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(November 26, 2013 at 7:12 am)xpastor Wrote: It does not say cultural conditions are the cause of your religion but rather that they are in large measure the cause of your adopting that particular religion....

Still not getting it are you?
The point is that if I lived in in Ur/Iraq or Bethlehem/Palestine in that case THEN I might be accused of adopting the culturally relevant religion.

But Jews in New York and Jews in Palestine live in vastly different cultures and yet they have the same ancient neolithic religion.

I didn't 'adopt' Abrahamic monotheism.
ABRAHAM did!
He is the cause and he is about as far away from me in distance and antiquity as you can get.

In terms of post modern culture - media, music, cuisine, Internet, commerce, zeitgeist, etc. - I am culturally closer to the atheists around here, than I am to Isaac or Ishmael.

You are still obfuscating ... or maybe obtuscating. Loftus does not say that people adopt a faith because they live in cultural conditions replicating those of the early days of that faith. How silly can you get? BTW, as for "neolithic religion" the conventional dates for Abraham and Moses put them well within the Bronze Age, if they existed.

Here is how Loftus expands upon his second point:

John W. Loftus Wrote:... 95 percent of people born and raised in Saudi Arabia are Muslim, while 95 percent of people born and raised in Thailand are Buddhist. If you were born in India, you'd likely be a Hindu. If you were born in Mexico, you'd likely be a Catholic. In fact, we were all raised as believers to a large extent. We were taught to believe whatever our parents told us. If they said there is a Santa Claus, then he existed until they said otherwise. [Actually, as I recall my childhood, there were "atheist" kids who debunked Santa. - xpastor] If we were told there was a god named Zeus we would've believed it. ... when it comes to religious faith, an overwhelming number of believers adopt and defend what they were raised to believe by their parents in their respective cultures.

Loftus has also written extensively on the OTF on the internet. This page from Debunking Christianity contains links to most of what he has written on the subject.

I was thinking about this, and it works for Atheism too.

Aren't we all under the obligation to test our beliefs? Step outside of ourselves and search for truth in all manners. I doubt many atheists on this forum would be willing to give prayer with a genuine heart a test drive.

(November 27, 2013 at 10:26 pm)GodsRevolt Wrote: I was thinking about this, and it works for Atheism too.

Aren't we all under the obligation to test our beliefs? Step outside of ourselves and search for truth in all manners. I doubt many atheists on this forum would be willing to give prayer with a genuine heart a test drive.

Not again, no.

(November 27, 2013 at 10:26 pm)GodsRevolt Wrote: I was thinking about this, and it works for Atheism too.

Aren't we all under the obligation to test our beliefs? Step outside of ourselves and search for truth in all manners. I doubt many atheists on this forum would be willing to give prayer with a genuine heart a test drive.

I'll take you up on this, GR. Although many people here have been very religious and have prayed their hearts out, I never have, since I was raised in a non-believing household- and at age 42, I've had a rocking life with some tragedy and disappointment, but a balance WAY tipped toward wonderful. I don't have much to ask for myself, but I do have much to ask for others.

I hope and wish all the time, so I'm familiar with that. Give me some instructions, and I'll see what I can do.

** Edit- I know you've been told time and time again that atheists are atheists because they have no beliefs in deities, not because they believe something, but I see you still need to throw that out there. Nevertheless, I'll try a prayer.