(November 30, 2013 at 6:08 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: No reasonable muslim supports Sharia, though.

Entire countries of muslims live under shariah. Who is to say what they support considering in most of these places free speech against the government isn't really something you get to do.

I've lived in m'sia for a long time, many muslims there support shariah. Then again that's only the muslims I know, and besides for those that form political parties that outright supports shariah (quite a popular group), can't really know about the rest. But considering the party that has stayed in place and the type of policy that has been allowed to go on it's quite obvious shariah isn't too big a problem for the majority, not big enough to go up against.

(November 30, 2013 at 6:08 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: No reasonable muslim supports Sharia, though.

And no rational person believes Islam.

(November 30, 2013 at 12:35 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote:

(November 29, 2013 at 2:18 pm)Nineteen Wrote: So 2x2= 4 , but you're ready to believe if some mathematicians says it can be 5 . You dont need to use your logic or you just dont want to use your logic , because it works for you when you dont use you logic .

Oh please, your qur'an is nowhere near logic, let's not even bring up mathematics. I've already quoted verses to proof my point but you completely missed it, I'll walk you through it.

Quote:You should use Arabic dictionaries , especially the old ones , or you can research in Arabic websites . in Quran , Allah calls satan as kafir. Satan knows Allah but still makes hostility and try to drag people in abuse . So here you can easly understand that "kafir" does not mean "non-believer" or "un-believer" .

Please don't use your qur'an to make laws for a language that is absurd. Your qur'an did not create arabic.

How can I look up a word in arabic dictionary if I don't know arabic? This cannot be the tactic you use to win debates, that's really winning on a technicality, and really not winning at all, just a stalemate. Anyways, found this: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.ph...g-of-Kafir

This is a muslim forum, and they're arguing about the meaning of kafir, I guess it's not as clear cut as you like it to be. Apparently a lot of scholars agree that it means nonbelievers.

Quote:what is meant here is to trust people blindly . The word evliaye is used for only very respectable islamic scholars . I have never heard anywhere else . So this is not a simple friendship , much more . Another point is verse does not say "dont be evliaye with them" , it says "dont make them evliaye for yourself" . So dont accept them as idols for yourself . Clearly Allah doesnt want muslims to being away from islamic values and close to the others .

Clearly nonmuslims treated differently. And yet you insist there is equality. Are you really not seeing this?

Quote:You dont have an objective perspective . But thanks you for letting me different perspectives which I have never looked at . Verse says a mumin isnt going to kill a mumin . Why you kill a person ? for example he/she want to kill you or another innocent person and such a person cannot be a "mumin". Can you understand what I mean ? Sorry for my english .

I don't have an objective perspective? As if you do?

I have no idea what a mumin is. Looked it up. Believer, why not just say that next time?

It doesn't say a believer isn't going to, it says a believer SHOULD NOT, and if a believer kills one because the other believer is being hostile, they should pay by releasing a believer slave. (I really don't know why you're making me repeat all this)

this is very different from what the qur'an says about hostile nonbelievers, where it practically says if you don't kill them allah will be mad at you. And you were saying that nonbelievers and believers get equal treatment (ok to be fair you said equity, which probably doesn't mean equality like we modern people understand it).

So this verse shows that that is not true and that when the qur'an refers to equality, this is often the idea they refer to, a different standard for muslims and non muslims, as my next example will again proof.

Quote:Didnt understand what is the problem with verse 60:10 . A women want muslims to accept her and muslims accept her .

DIFFERENT TREATMENT for believers and another set of different treatment for nonbelievers. Again, not equality. And yet the qur'an happily calls it justice.

Anyway , all of these issues is a separate topic of discussion and you're jumping in another discuss in each different message . This topic about women in Islam . I was a member in http://www.ummah.com and they had insulted me and banned me . I prefer an atheist forum in rather than discuss it such muslims , they are crazy ignorant and close to the learn . I have many times discussed with extremist muslims face to face in France and they said me "you're not muslim you poor girl , get out of here , kaffir zindiq stupid " , they cant discuss with me .

If you dont want to understand I cant do anything more . Today arabic language laws are based on Quranic arabic . Beucase Quran is written with perfect arabic and it was given to Arabs at Arabic literature's most brilliant period . You cant find the slightest contradiction in it , you just think that you find a contradiction in translations .

Salaam ...

(November 30, 2013 at 11:22 am)Nineteen Wrote: Beucase Quran is written with perfect arabic and it was given to Arabs at Arabic literature's most brilliant period . You cant find the slightest contradiction in it , you just think that you find a contradiction in translations .

That sounds like you're having your cake and eating it too.

So there are contradictions in the Quran but it's not the fault of the Quran because it's been translated wrong.

So what about the 'original' translation, then?

(November 30, 2013 at 11:22 am)Nineteen Wrote: Anyway , all of these issues is a separate topic of discussion and you're jumping in another discuss in each different message . This topic about women in Islam . I was a member in http://www.ummah.com and they had insulted me and banned me . I prefer an atheist forum in rather than discuss it such muslims , they are crazy ignorant and close to the learn . I have many times discussed with extremist muslims face to face in France and they said me "you're not muslim you poor girl , get out of here , kaffir zindiq stupid " , they cant discuss with me .

If you dont want to understand I cant do anything more . Today arabic language laws are based on Quranic arabic . Beucase Quran is written with perfect arabic and it was given to Arabs at Arabic literature's most brilliant period . You cant find the slightest contradiction in it , you just think that you find a contradiction in translations .

Salaam ...

You do realise that you've just exposed the major weakness of the Islamic doctrine yourself, that is that people can interpret it in different ways, and that fundamentalists are able to force the most extreme elements to the forefront and suppress other elements. You also realise that the major strength of modern secular legal systems is that they are open to democratic processes and can be UPDATED and IMPROVED over time, in such a way that certain concepts can be expanded and explained in a clear and concise way. Any system that isn't open to change is extremely dangerous, and you've just basically exposed Islam for what it is: an unclear and highly volatile system that not even Muslims can agree on. Even if we pretend that as a women you aren't treated as filth, you've just said yourself that there are many Muslims who want to ban you from websites for being too liberal with your interpretations. Does that not set alarm bells ringing in your head? Would you not prefer a legal and moral code that is adaptable and open to different thoughts, that may be improved over time so that everyone can get the best out of it? Why would you want a sexist medieval system that hasn't changed in several hundred years? That's a BAD thing, not a good thing.

Quote:You cant find the slightest contradiction in it , you just think that you find a contradiction in translations .

But that's simply not true, you CAN discern the main concepts and teachings through translations in to other language, and even if there was some sort of poetic mystery that was lost in translation (which is purely wishful thinking) what about all the ARABIC speakers (Christians, jews and ex-muslims) who find the same contradictions and faults in Islam? It is not infallible, it is full of contradictions just like any text that isn't allowed to be changed or updated.

Homosexuals lying about Quran being open for interpretation. It's not and the homosexual who commented above is attempting to lie and deceive as is this homosexuals nature

(November 30, 2013 at 2:26 pm)Sleepy Wrote: Homosexuals lying about Quran being open for interpretation. It's not and the homosexual who commented above is attempting to lie and deceive as is this homosexuals nature

Have you ever considered trying to make sense? What do you even think a "homosexual" is?

Nineteen, I was pretty detailed in what I was thought about the verses and I was very clear in where the contradiction lies or even if you don't want to call it a contradiction. It is because you said there is equality between muslims and nonmuslims and I simply showed you verse where they are treated differently for the same actions, that is inequality right there, by modern definitions. I'm not even discussing women's issue, I'm discussing one issue throughout. If you don't want to continue it's fine, the verses are pretty clear in what they're saying. It's obvious that the qur'an's idea of equality is not the modern interpretation of the word equality. I don't see how anyone will reach any other conclusion after reading our back and forth.


Sleepy, shut up.

ETA: and to say that the qur'an BECAME the law for arabic is fucking crazy. The language existed before that's how they wrote it. If you write a book and made a lot of grammar mistakes and say, well no, now this book's english is the new rule for english because this book can only be perfect. Any contradictions in thsi book is not real contradiction you just fail to understand the perfect english this book uses. This must be the easiest way to get out of any responsibility I've ever heard, the fact that it can be applied to every single book in existence makes it useless and ridiculous.

(November 30, 2013 at 2:01 pm)WesOlsen Wrote: You do realise that you've just exposed the major weakness of the Islamic doctrine yourself, that is that people can interpret it in different ways, and that fundamentalists are able to force the most extreme elements to the forefront and suppress other elements. You also realise that the major strength of modern secular legal systems is that they are open to democratic processes and can be UPDATED and IMPROVED over time, in such a way that certain concepts can be expanded and explained in a clear and concise way. Any system that isn't open to change is extremely dangerous, and you've just basically exposed Islam for what it is: an unclear and highly volatile system that not even Muslims can agree on. Even if we pretend that as a women you aren't treated as filth, you've just said yourself that there are many Muslims who want to ban you from websites for being too liberal with your interpretations. Does that not set alarm bells ringing in your head? Would you not prefer a legal and moral code that is adaptable and open to different thoughts, that may be improved over time so that everyone can get the best out of it? Why would you want a sexist medieval system that hasn't changed in several hundred years? That's a BAD thing, not a good thing.

But that's simply not true, you CAN discern the main concepts and teachings through translations in to other language, and even if there was some sort of poetic mystery that was lost in translation (which is purely wishful thinking) what about all the ARABIC speakers (Christians, jews and ex-muslims) who find the same contradictions and faults in Islam? It is not infallible, it is full of contradictions just like any text that isn't allowed to be changed or updated.

Before you write these things , you should read about Arabic language features . It is unlike any other language and there is a rich narrative structure . Words have so much meanings and this meanings varies by where it is used or which attachments are used . Arabic is one of the world's difficult languages . For example I could not translate the world "evliaye" in English , I said ally , but still its not the same . But interpreters translate it as "friend" , this is false .

We dont kill our prophets and we dont change our holy book . 2x2 was 4 1500 years ago and today its still the same .

If you dont want me to ignore you , dont imply to me being atheist .

(November 30, 2013 at 2:57 pm)Nineteen Wrote:

(November 30, 2013 at 2:01 pm)WesOlsen Wrote: You do realise that you've just exposed the major weakness of the Islamic doctrine yourself, that is that people can interpret it in different ways, and that fundamentalists are able to force the most extreme elements to the forefront and suppress other elements. You also realise that the major strength of modern secular legal systems is that they are open to democratic processes and can be UPDATED and IMPROVED over time, in such a way that certain concepts can be expanded and explained in a clear and concise way. Any system that isn't open to change is extremely dangerous, and you've just basically exposed Islam for what it is: an unclear and highly volatile system that not even Muslims can agree on. Even if we pretend that as a women you aren't treated as filth, you've just said yourself that there are many Muslims who want to ban you from websites for being too liberal with your interpretations. Does that not set alarm bells ringing in your head? Would you not prefer a legal and moral code that is adaptable and open to different thoughts, that may be improved over time so that everyone can get the best out of it? Why would you want a sexist medieval system that hasn't changed in several hundred years? That's a BAD thing, not a good thing.

But that's simply not true, you CAN discern the main concepts and teachings through translations in to other language, and even if there was some sort of poetic mystery that was lost in translation (which is purely wishful thinking) what about all the ARABIC speakers (Christians, jews and ex-muslims) who find the same contradictions and faults in Islam? It is not infallible, it is full of contradictions just like any text that isn't allowed to be changed or updated.

Before you write these things , you should read about Arabic language features . It is unlike any other language and there is a rich narrative structure . Words have so much meanings and this meanings varies by where it is used or which attachments are used . Arabic is one of the world's difficult languages . For example I could not translate the world "evliaye" in English , I said ally , but still its not the same . But interpreters translate it as "friend" , this is false .

We dont kill our prophets and we dont change our holy book . 2x2 was 4 1500 years ago and today its still the same .

If you dont want me to ignore you , dont imply to me being atheist .

You appear to think of yourself as a moderate Muslim, however your attitude to the Quran doesn't seem to support that position.