(December 12, 2013 at 10:48 am)Esquilax Wrote: Is that a case of taking advantage, though? You're talking as though it was a conscious choice that women were making, when in reality the choice was made by men, on behalf of patriarchal ideas that feminism had no part in forming, and actively fight against.

No, I'm actually talking about cases where [some] women knowingly took advantage of this, despite it actually being rather detrimental in doing so. And the reason it arose as precisely because of feminist actions, not merely men.

Quote:You can't really fault women for taking part in a system they've only relatively recently had the power to change.

I'm not, I'm only really faulting women (not even women really, but a certain strain of sloppy feminist argumentation) that go for the rights, but bemoan the duties that comes with having certain rights (trying to have it both ways, in other words). For example, I've found it pretty shocking that it seems an oft-trumpted feminist (possibly extremist) thing to legally presume the guilt of the purported male rapist, often bolstered by the claim that most rapes go unreported so it is to be used as a sort of counter-balance.

(December 12, 2013 at 2:14 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Could you be more specific? I tried looking it up, didn't find anything relating to what we're discussing.

ETA: I mean Lemon.

Actually I think Tara just stated my position better then I did.

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(December 12, 2013 at 2:14 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Could you be more specific? I tried looking it up, didn't find anything relating to what we're discussing.

ETA: I mean Lemon.

Actually I think Tara just stated my position better then I did.

(December 12, 2013 at 2:24 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: I'm not, I'm only really faulting women (not even women really, but a certain strain of sloppy feminist argumentation) that go for the rights, but bemoan the duties that comes with having certain rights (trying to have it both ways, in other words).

This is a human condition, not a female one. People like to have the things taxes pay for, but bitch about paying the taxes. Why should women specifically get so much anger from you for it, even assuming they actually do this?

Quote: For example, I've found it pretty shocking that it seems an oft-trumpted feminist (possibly extremist) thing to legally presume the guilt of the purported male rapist, often bolstered by the claim that most rapes go unreported so it is to be used as a sort of counter-balance.

This is possibly the most BS thing you've said in this thread. Most people automatically assume the guilt of ANYONE charged with ANY crime. And it's not a "claim" that most rapes go unreported. It's a fucking fact. Men are even LESS likely to report rape than women are, and the reasons for both sexes not to report it are totally obvious. What this has to do with your first point- having it both ways- is completely unclear. If you want people not to think you're a misogynist, stop spouting crap like this.

I've always found it somewhat amusing that an issue which damn near everyone agrees on can be so bloody divisive. I mean, a discussion which should go something like:

"Do you agree that men and women should have equal rights?"

"Damn right!"

"Cool"


Always seems to end up like this:

"You misogynistic prick!"

"Go fuck yourself, feminazi!"

"You're a fucking rape apologist!"

I really don't want to get too involved in this thread as I like a lot of people on both sides of the issue and this topic tends to get pretty intense (not that I think there are really sides as such).

I think a lot of the divisiveness comes from conflating "feminism" the idea with "Feminism" the ideology/dogma.

There are loud, obnoxious opinionated and generally offensive people on sides of the debate (I'm not talking about anyone on this forum btw) and I think the only way to have a sensible, mature and intelligent conversation on the subject is to ignore these people.

Damn near every feminist I've spoken to has been just as concerned with inequalities for men as well as women, so my opinion is that terms such as "sexism" "misandrist/misogynist" etc need to be left at the door as once insults start flying, it's hard to bring things back down to earth. It's far too easy for otherwise harmless and innocuous sentences to be inadvertantly taken out of context or misconstrued. I think people need to extra careful whilst wording their own posts and more lenient when reading the posts of others. It might be best to ask someone to clarify their position in order to avoid reading something into a post that was never intended.

(December 12, 2013 at 3:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: This is a human condition, not a female one. People like to have the things taxes pay for, but bitch about paying the taxes. Why should women specifically get so much anger from you for it, even assuming they actually do this?

If it's a human and not specifically femal condition, then it would seem feminism isn't really adequate.
Lol, women don't get anger from me over this, I just find inconsistent argumentation that mainstream feminism rarely distances itself from to be silly. Much the same as I feel abput religious theism, actually.
And this is a thing women did, not that something women do as a sort of widespread thing. In context, I was talking about aroudnd th 40s. The modern say stuff I brought up was stuff about the Taliban-run Afganistan.

Quote:This is possibly the most BS thing you've said in this thread. Most people automatically assume the guilt of ANYONE charged with ANY crime. And it's not a "claim" that most rapes go unreported. It's a fucking fact.

Wait wait wait, so you're saying it's the right thing to do? I dobut you are, so that's a red herring. Further, it's even worse with rape and murder, maybe even more so with rape because it's harder to prove and has a terrible stigma (rightfully so), but that unfortunately blinds some to the need for proper legal proceedings.

I'm not sure I disputed that many rapes are unreported. The real crux is that many rapes are likewise acquitted either because of lack of evidence (which is to be expected with a crime like this) or plain bad evidence, so the extremist position I mentioned of presuming male guilt until proven innocent that some feminists put forward is ridiculous and contrary to the apparent aims of feminism.

Quote:Men are even LESS likely to report rape than women are, and the reasons for both sexes not to report it are totally obvious. What this has to do with your first point- having it both ways- is completely unclear. If you want people not to think you're a misogynist, stop spouting crap like this.

Do you REALLY not see how that VERY extremist view (which I hope you don't hold) is trying to have it both ways? Come on, how easy is this. It's wanting women to be legally favored in criminal proceedings over men, despite feminists (and other sane people) wanting women to be on a level playing field with men.

And as for YOUR BS, I've repeatedly voiced my support for male and female equality, but what you and others here have argued have been unjustified claims of completely male-made and male-maintained oppression towards women, which is a paradigm so simplistic I can't believe it doesn't ring some alarm bells to actually hold a more nuanced position.

(December 12, 2013 at 8:55 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: If it's a human and not specifically femal condition, then it would seem feminism isn't really adequate.

Adequate for what? Discussing issues of inequity? You seem to be saying that women specifically are guilty of wanting rights but not wanting the responsibilities- a condition that all human beings are occasionally prone to. You have given no example of this. Feminism is a mindset that encourages thought and activism about gender inequities. I really have no idea what you're arguing.

Quote:Lol, women don't get anger from me over this, I just find inconsistent argumentation that mainstream feminism rarely distances itself from to be silly. Much the same as I feel abput religious theism, actually.

So you're belittling feminism, not hating it. Gotcha.

Quote:And this is a thing women did, not that something women do as a sort of widespread thing. In context, I was talking about aroudnd th 40s. The modern say stuff I brought up was stuff about the Taliban-run Afganistan

.
Bold by me, because I still have no idea what "this" is. Why are the 40s relevant? Why are the Taliban relevant?

Quote:Wait wait wait, so you're saying it's the right thing to do? I dobut you are, so that's a red herring.

MFM, I confess I have no idea what you're saying here either. I think WHAT is the right thing to do? Report rape? Not report rape?

Quote: Further, it's even worse with rape and murder, maybe even more so with rape because it's harder to prove and has a terrible stigma (rightfully so), but that unfortunately blinds some to the need for proper legal proceedings.

Still no idea what you're talking about or why it's relevant.

Quote:I'm not sure I disputed that many rapes are unreported. The real crux is that many rapes are likewise acquitted either because of lack of evidence (which is to be expected with a crime like this) or plain bad evidence, so the extremist position I mentioned of presuming male guilt until proven innocent that some feminists put forward is ridiculous and contrary to the apparent aims of feminism.

So "some" feminists do this, therefore feminism is bad? Since I'm pretty sure you don't think that, what's the point? As I said in an earlier post, there are assholes everywhere, and I hardly think women, or feminists, are the only ones assuming guilt for rapists. Here in Texas, the good ol' boys (who are assuredly not feminists) will string your ass up if their little sisters accuse you of rape. It's NOT a feminist mindset or a female mindset. It's human nature. It doesn't make it right to assume guilt before it's proven, but it has nothing to do with feminism. Hear me on this.

Quote:Do you REALLY not see how that VERY extremist view (which I hope you don't hold) is trying to have it both ways?

WHAT extremist view? Assuming guilt before it's proven- which human beings tend to do? No, I don't see how that's feminists trying to have it both ways, since you haven't proven that feminists do this as a matter of course, or that it's related to the ideals of feminism in any way. You have stated- accurately- that SOME PEOPLE do this. That is neither here nor there with feminism, the majority of feminists, or me personally. It's a BS argument, as I said before.

Quote: Come on, how easy is this. It's wanting women to be legally favored in criminal proceedings over men, despite feminists (and other sane people) wanting women to be on a level playing field with men.

How is it "wanting legal favoritism" to try rapists in court- even on only the word of a victim? Again, you're making no sense.

Quote:And as for YOUR BS, I've repeatedly voiced my support for male and female equality, but what you and others here have argued have been unjustified claims of completely male-made and male-maintained oppression towards women,

Show me where I did that. Right now.

Quote:which is a paradigm so simplistic I can't believe it doesn't ring some alarm bells to actually hold a more nuanced position.

Your position is so nuanced that I can make no sense of it.

(December 12, 2013 at 3:11 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:

(December 12, 2013 at 2:14 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: Could you be more specific? I tried looking it up, didn't find anything relating to what we're discussing.

ETA: I mean Lemon.

Actually I think Tara just stated my position better then I did.

Oh you mean custody cases. Yea I'd agree that's one area where men are shortchanged. But I'm from a muslim country, in shariah fathers get custody by default or it's extremely difficult for women to get custody in divorce, extremely. So nonmuslim men often convert after their divorce to get tried in shariah courts so that they can get custody by default. And I also know mothers who refuse to take custody after divorces.

So I definitely agree that custody shouldn't favour one side over the other so strongly just because of cultural "norms". But I'm not sure what this has to do with feminism. If we were to point out all the places where women are shortchanged and say men's rights group aren't doing shit for that, that wouldn't really be fair, would it? Because first of all we don't know if they are doing things about it, but we certainly cannot fault them for how things are today.

And this is a very north american view of women's issues, if you look at the third world countries, there is a great need for feminism and a fight for women's rights. In N america I feel like people spend a lot of time squabbling over the details (custody isn't a detail, but other issues), but in many places in the world, women don't even get to go to school or work just because they're women. When disaster strikes in third world countries women are more likely to die than men, women suffer higher rates of infant mortality than men in several different countries, in refugee camps women often have to have "survival sex" to get food and resources to keep themselves alive. So feminism isn't going to stop just because some groups have lost sight of what they're doing because there's still a great need for women's rights in many parts of the world. I'm not going to say these are issues that men's rights have to deal with to prove they're for equality. What's the point of that? It's petty. Whoever is going to deal with it deals with it, someone needs to, that's all.

When you find a feminist who cares about equality, tell me.

I find feminists only care about equality when women need to be made equal to men.

(December 12, 2013 at 10:09 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote:

(December 12, 2013 at 3:11 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Actually I think Tara just stated my position better then I did.

Oh you mean custody cases. Yea I'd agree that's one area where men are shortchanged. But I'm from a muslim country, in shariah fathers get custody by default or it's extremely difficult for women to get custody in divorce, extremely. So nonmuslim men often convert after their divorce to get tried in shariah courts so that they can get custody by default. And I also know mothers who refuse to take custody after divorces.

So I definitely agree that custody shouldn't favour one side over the other so strongly just because of cultural "norms". But I'm not sure what this has to do with feminism. If we were to point out all the places where women are shortchanged and say men's rights group aren't doing shit for that, that wouldn't really be fair, would it? Because first of all we don't know if they are doing things about it, but we certainly cannot fault them for how things are today.

And this is a very north american view of women's issues, if you look at the third world countries, there is a great need for feminism and a fight for women's rights. In N america I feel like people spend a lot of time squabbling over the details (custody isn't a detail, but other issues), but in many places in the world, women don't even get to go to school or work just because they're women. When disaster strikes in third world countries women are more likely to die than men, women suffer higher rates of infant mortality than men in several different countries, in refugee camps women often have to have "survival sex" to get food and resources to keep themselves alive. So feminism isn't going to stop just because some groups have lost sight of what they're doing because there's still a great need for women's rights in many parts of the world. I'm not going to say these are issues that men's rights have to deal with to prove they're for equality. What's the point of that? It's petty. Whoever is going to deal with it deals with it, someone needs to, that's all.

Oh on point I most certainly agree, much more work needs to be done in the third world, actually I would not mind volutoeeri g for a organization that was committed to that. The only issue I cab think is that feminist movements in the third world especially the islamic countries will need to be home grown at least at first. I really doubt westerns campaigning there would be taken seriously enough to make any large change. I think maybe the best way to help would be to provide good solidinformation to women those countries on the status of women in other parts of the world. Forgive me for thinking outloud a little, you got me rolling. But I have a suspicion that women in oppressed countries are often lied about all sorts of things in the outside world, so getting them good information is a start. Clerics are a issue though, some country may try to behead a feminist movement, hrmmm.

(December 12, 2013 at 10:20 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: When you find a feminist who cares about equality, tell me.

I find feminists only care about equality when women need to be made equal to men.

Well, Vinny, feminism is the movement that seeks equality for women. Do you expect the United Negro College Fund to provide scholarships for white kids? Does this mean the ANCF doesn't care about education for all children?

I sit on the board of a nonprofit that provides scholarships to minority girls. White girls, or boys of any race, will not benefit from this organization. This does not meant that I do not care about the education of white girls, or of boys, or that the founders of the nonprofit don't. But their specific mission is to help minority girls, which is good.

It's AMAZING how much so many men here- atheist and theist alike- disdain feminism. A pity.