The "holy books" are looking more and more amoral as time goes by.

Those adhering to them are becoming less and less a force in the real world of morality.

(December 24, 2013 at 4:39 pm)xpastor Wrote: Since I'm guilty of the OP, I should make my views known on the subject at some point.

I did not want to say anything when I posted the topic because I hoped to get people's opinions rather than a reaction to anything which I wrote.

The response from Christians has been underwhelming. There was one post which cited the rebirth of Israel after 2000 years supposedly fulfilling biblical prophecy as a reason for believing that the end times would occur at least within the poster's lifetime.

Wasn't what I said nor suggested, I do not believe it will be in my life time but, if it is then I hope I can make it to the end so I can see Christ's return. The prophecy gave no amount of time for Israel's final restoration, just the the end would be close when Israel was restored. I alone gave the 2000 year time period because it simply has been that long, nothing more.

xpastor Wrote:When I asked for a specific reference to the bible passage there was no response. I don't think there is any such prophecy, and I'm not being fussy about mentioning 2000 years. Israel was repeatedly conquered in ancient times, by the Assyrians, by the Egyptians, by the Babylonians and by the Macedonian Greek successors to Alexander. There are some texts in Isaiah (which was written by at least 3 different authors) suggesting a resurgence of Israel after a defeat, but nothing that would tie the words to the modern re-emergence of Israel as a nation.

Correct, Israel was punished by God for their disobedience and they were conquered by other powers of the times. Israel was restored, but never to it's greatness of the David-Solomon era. Then as told in the OT they would be destroyed and scattered worldwide a last time (Romans), and then restored at some future date. There will be no destruction of Israel again, Christ will come and put an end to the war against them and then the final judgment.

xpastor Wrote:As a skeptic my own views are that there are no end times in the sense of a final judgment of God, though it is just possible that we will destroy our own world by causing further climate change.

God says that if Christ did not return man would destroy himself and the world, funny you should bring up an end times statement.

xpastor Wrote:The question I am going to look at is how Christians came to believe in a final judgment.

The short answer is that they inherited the idea from the Jews in that era. Judaism in the 1st century BCE was rife with apocalyptic speculations about the end of the world, a time when God would finally punish the evildoers and reward the good people.

You got this Jewish understanding from where?

xpastor Wrote:John the Baptist was an apocalyptic prophet foretelling the imminent end of the world: "Repent ... the axe is laid at the root of the tree."

Your saying that the Jews were developing an end times apocalyptic prophecy from Christian writings, now that's weird.
The quote you've given comes from chapter 3 verse 9 of Luke, why didn't you mention that, you may deceive some but not all. Chapter 3: 1-22 are about John baptizing and preparing the way for Christ and verse 9 is about those who do not repent, has nothing absolutely nothing to do with end time prophecy. Taking verses out of context is deceitful, don't you know that?
Here's what they actually say, Luke 3:7-9 He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8) Bear fruits in keep with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9) Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Does this sound like or event hint at an end time prophecy, no and you are only being deceitful by using part of the verses.

xpastor Wrote:So was Jesus. Quite simply he believed that the world would end within that generation. This was first realized by Albert Schweitzer way back in 1906. Today it is not the only view but it is certainly the dominant one among NT scholars who are not tied to a belief in biblical inerrancy.

And where did you get this from, you've given no references. Jesus never hints at the end times being soon or in the life time of anyone.

xpastor Wrote:It's right there in black and white in the bible for anyone to read.

Quote: For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matt 16:28, repeated in Mark 9 and Luke 9)

It is plainly about the final judgment, and Jesus asserts that it will happen while some of his audience are still living. C.S. Lewis called it the most embarrassing verse in the bible with good reason.

Jesus was speaking of the church not of the end times, the kingdom of Christ is the church which is the people. I'm guessing here but I'm betting I'm right, the only reason you accept this from C.S. Lewis is because it's along the beliefs you have, I bet you want take his positive statements on scripture as true.

xpastor Wrote:Another verse comes in as a close second, although Christians try to wiggle out of the obvious meaning. In Matthew 24 Jesus gives an apocalyptic discourse. He mentions the destruction of the Temple, but it is impossible to claim that the prophecy was fulfilled in 70 CE when the Romans destroyed the Temple, for he goes on to give signs of the end which have never happened "‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky." He rushes on to what is clearly supposed to be the end of the world.

What do you mean He rushes on, are you saying He's trying to hide something. The prophecy of the destruction of the Temple has nothing to do with the end times, that's what you've made up.

xpastor Wrote:Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

If you do not change you for one will not be gathered up for eternal life with Him. You'll be one of those left behind saying, well I guess I'm on the wrong side of this one.

xpastor Wrote:And when is this supposed to happen? Jesus plainly says:

Quote:Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. (Matt 24:30, repeated in Mark 13 & Luke 21))

Of course the traditional wiggle is to claim that here generation does not mean generation but race or nation, so it supposedly means that Israel will not disappear until all these things have happened.

That's what it means, Jesus said to His disciples that no one knows the day or hour of His return, only the Father knows that.
genea - genos: born,country, diversity, generation, nation,offspring, stock, time, age.
Nation fits nicely in the scripture you quoted, because it matches with other things said by Jesus, such as the one I just gave .

xpastor Wrote:It's a very feeble argument born of desperation. For one thing there is a different Greek word genos which is commonly used to mean race or nation. The Greek word genea used by Jesus means "generation" in the vast number of instances, that is, "the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time" or "the time of a generation." These definitions are taken from Arndt-Gingrich, the definitive lexicon of NT Greek.

The only desperation belongs to you, the only thing feeble is you, both mean the same things, genea means literally an age, the period of generation, nation or time. Again the verse you quoted makes sense only when combined with other sayings of Jesus.

xpastor Wrote:Genea is used once, not in the NT but in Josephus, to mean the descendants of a common ancestor, a clan. However, Arndt-Gingrich definitely assigns the use in Matt 24 to the meaning generation, the people living at one time.

You mean to tell us that the word genea was only used once to mean, the age of a nation, where did you find that information, the definition according to Strong's can mean an age of a nation and this would be for biblical purposes.

xpastor Wrote:It makes no sense to say that genea means the nation of Israel. What is plainly demanded by the context is an indication of the time when this will happen, not to the day or hour, but approximately when. Saying that Israel will still exist as a nation says exactly nothing about when the end will come.

It makes perfect sense because it meshes with the other things Jesus said. It also makes sense in the context of Israel as a nation, the destruction of the nation was soon to come and Jesus foretold this. Then the prophecy of Israel re-established as a nation at the end time makes complete sense. So saying Israel existing as a nation at the end times fits perfectly with the scriptures, Israel is here as a nation and the end time is near.

xpastor Wrote:Other passages also indicate an end within Jesus' own generation.

The next one is a real shocker. Jesus sends out the 12 disciples to preach and heal and he tells them "Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matt 10:23) The coming of the Son of Man is the Last Judgment. NB I do not think the whole passage in Matthew 10 authentically reflects what Jesus said. Much of it seems to reflect a later time in the life of the church when "you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles." However, either way this is a problem for biblical inerrantists.

Who are you copying this stuff from, it's ridiculous. Jesus tells His disciples that end would not come until the gospel was spread to the whole world, let's be clear here Judea was not considered all of the world. Again in the passage you quoted Jesus, was referring to the church, which is the believers which He resides in. Thus the coming of the Son of Man.

xpastor Wrote:Finally, at the trial before the Sanhedrin Jesus tells the High Priest "you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of the Almighty and coming on the clouds of heaven!" (Matt 26:64) This is a prophecy of the end, and he says the High Priest standing before him will live to see it.

Now you're out right lying, Jesus was saying you are fulling the prophecy and sending me to the right hand of God the Father. The word you in this passage is given in a generic term meaning all. This isn't a prophecy at all, Jesus is telling the priest what he is helping to set in motion. You are desperate beyond belief, sir.

xpastor Wrote:Jesus thought the end would come in his time. Paul thought the end would come in his time. Of course he is temporally close enough to Jesus that it would count as the same generation. In his earliest writing Paul assumes that he will be alive "on the day the Lord comes." (1 Thess 4:15)

You said Jesus believed that the end would come in His life time, yet Jesus foretold His own death at least three times. You said that Jesus predicted the end to come in the time of the present generation after His ascension, this is in direct contradiction to Jesus believed it would be in His life time. People who can't keep their own lies straight are not to even be trusted by other liars.
Yes Paul did believe Christ would return in his life time, that is during his early ministry as you said, however Paul came to see he was wrong about his belief.

xpastor Wrote:So where do all these post-biblical prophecies of the end times come from. We could probably find one for virtually every decade of Christian history. Some notable ones are Tertullian and the Montanists ca 180 CE, the German Anabaptists at the time of the Reformation, William Miller and the Great Disappointment in the 1840s, the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1914, Hal Lindsay's apocalypse industry starting in the 1970s with ever-changing dates, Harold Camping in 2011, and so on.

You're right many have believed that Christ would come during their life time, however that's not what I've said about myself, why, because it's foolish to claim something God has already said was impossible for man to know.

xpastor Wrote:I believe most of these people were sincere. They responded to the urgency of Jesus' preaching, and since they could not imagine that their divine savior had made such a colossal mistake, they transferred the urgency to their own times, and began to look for cock-eyed signs of the end. In this case, he who seeks will definitely find—every time.

Those who understand the end times are not in a hurry to experience them, there's many terrible things awaiting Christians. Those who look for the end time in their life are wanting the end to evil and the eternal to begin and never give any thought to what awaits those who live through those days.

GC

I will not bother to reply to the pathetic long screed which Godschild has posted. It is just one long wail of "No, no, no, it ain't so because I don't think so."

I will just give the full title of one authority which I cited, since he seems not to know what it is: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Writings, originally compiled in German by W. Bauer and later translated into English and edited by W.F. Arndt and F.W. Gingrich. It is the standard authority for people who can read New Testament Greek, and is commonly abbreviated to Arndt-Gingrich or even A-G.

(December 30, 2013 at 8:00 am)xpastor Wrote: I will not bother to reply to the pathetic long screed which Godschild has posted. It is just one long wail of "No, no, no, it ain't so because I don't think so."

I will just give the full title of one authority which I cited, since he seems not to know what it is: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Writings, originally compiled in German by W. Bauer and later translated into English and edited by W.F. Arndt and F.W. Gingrich. It is the standard authority for people who can read New Testament Greek, and is commonly abbreviated to Arndt-Gingrich or even A-G.

All that catterwalling means one thing, your to lazy to do your own work, and to lazy to answer work done by others, I spent a long time in the scriptures to make sure of my answers. Your excuse, it's a bother to me to respond, kinda arrogant of you sir.

GC

OK, GC, I will reply to one piece of idiocy in your attempt at answering me.

GodsChild Wrote:Your saying that the Jews were developing an end times apocalyptic prophecy from Christian writings, now that's weird.
The quote you've given comes from chapter 3 verse 9 of Luke, why didn't you mention that, you may deceive some but not all. Chapter 3: 1-22 are about John baptizing and preparing the way for Christ and verse 9 is about those who do not repent, has nothing absolutely nothing to do with end time prophecy. Taking verses out of context is deceitful, don't you know that?
Here's what they actually say, Luke 3:7-9 He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8) Bear fruits in keep with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9) Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Does this sound like or event hint at an end time prophecy, no and you are only being deceitful by using part of the verses.

If your first sentence means anything, you're accusing me of saying that the Jews read about John the Baptist in the gospels!!! No, John lived decades before the gospels were written. I am saying that he was one of many apocalyptic preachers running around the countryside in Palestine back then.

Every time you accuse me of making up stuff, you show your colossal ignorance of NT scholarship. It has been common knowledge for a century or more that the Jews in the decades before and after Jesus had apocalyptic ideas, which means that the end of the world was coming soon with God's judgment on evildoers. Josephus in his history of the Jews mentions a couple of apocalyptic would-be messiahs. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls first found in 1946 contain the writings of an apocalyptic group known as the Essenes, sometimes called the Qumran community. For over half a century scholars have suggested that John the Baptist and Jesus were influenced by this community. And yes, "the wrath to come ... the axe is laid to the root of the trees ... is cut down and thrown into the fire" are all expressions typical of apocalyptic prophecy. I don't think you know what the word means.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but it gets tedious to correct people who know nothing whatsoever about the subject. Do some reading about the bible outside the tracts circulating in your church, and then come back.

Trying to teach G-C anything is pretty much a futile gesture. He believes in fairy tales and he is incapable of intellectual growth.

(January 1, 2014 at 2:59 pm)xpastor Wrote: OK, GC, I will reply to one piece of idiocy in your attempt at answering me.

GodsChild Wrote:Your saying that the Jews were developing an end times apocalyptic prophecy from Christian writings, now that's weird.
The quote you've given comes from chapter 3 verse 9 of Luke, why didn't you mention that, you may deceive some but not all. Chapter 3: 1-22 are about John baptizing and preparing the way for Christ and verse 9 is about those who do not repent, has nothing absolutely nothing to do with end time prophecy. Taking verses out of context is deceitful, don't you know that?
Here's what they actually say, Luke 3:7-9 He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8) Bear fruits in keep with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9) Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Does this sound like or event hint at an end time prophecy, no and you are only being deceitful by using part of the verses.

If your first sentence means anything, you're accusing me of saying that the Jews read about John the Baptist in the gospels!!! No, John lived decades before the gospels were written. I am saying that he was one of many apocalyptic preachers running around the countryside in Palestine back then.

Every time you accuse me of making up stuff, you show your colossal ignorance of NT scholarship. It has been common knowledge for a century or more that the Jews in the decades before and after Jesus had apocalyptic ideas, which means that the end of the world was coming soon with God's judgment on evildoers. Josephus in his history of the Jews mentions a couple of apocalyptic would-be messiahs. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls first found in 1946 contain the writings of an apocalyptic group known as the Essenes, sometimes called the Qumran community. For over half a century scholars have suggested that John the Baptist and Jesus were influenced by this community. And yes, "the wrath to come ... the axe is laid to the root of the trees ... is cut down and thrown into the fire" are all expressions typical of apocalyptic prophecy. I don't think you know what the word means.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but it gets tedious to correct people who know nothing whatsoever about the subject. Do some reading about the bible outside the tracts circulating in your church, and then come back.

The verses you used are not apocalyptic, they are about repentance and coming to the Christ. The wording may resemble apocalyptic but it doesn't mean that's what it is. John the Baptist never preached about the apocalypse, Christ however did but it was a minor part of His teaching.
Is that how you taught in your church, through tracts, we do research.

GC

(January 3, 2014 at 5:25 am)Godschild Wrote: The verses you used are not apocalyptic, they are about repentance and coming to the Christ. The wording may resemble apocalyptic but it doesn't mean that's what it is. John the Baptist never preached about the apocalypse, Christ however did but it was a minor part of His teaching.
Is that how you taught in your church, through tracts, we do research.

GC

Obviously you wouldn't know apocalyptic preaching if it bit you in the ass. Your mind is totally channeled by what you hear and read in your church.

No, that is not how I taught in my church 30+ years ago. I used to believe bullshit very similar to yours. Don't know if you are familiar with it, but my former denomination was the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, which is very conservative on the issue of biblical inerrancy. Eventually I realized that I was doing mental contortions to pretend there were no contradictions and more importantly to me, to pretend that all the barbaric genocides and punishments supposedly ordered by God were justified instead of being the sick propaganda of a bunch of primitives.