And wheres is the sacrifice if he gets to go back and sit at the right hand of his daddy.. hell... sting me up on a post... il buy that for a dollar!!

(January 13, 2014 at 10:28 pm)(╯°◊°）╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Allowing people to suffer and die at the whims of happenstance disaster, when it could all be avoided, is still cruel and neglectful.

How so?

Take a step back and look big picture for a minute. Suffering and Death are just about the worst things that can happen to us in this life, take away suffering and death and something else will take it's place as "The worst thing that can happen in this life." To which I have no doubt it would be held up is the same regaurd as suffering and death. How can I say this? Because if you were to take another step back you would know suffering to be a temporing/proofing process that pushes people to grow Spiritually, and it should not be avoided just because of the discomfort. Death or rather what we have labled as death is our birth into eternity. Whether that birth id followed by a 2nd death or eternal life is I guess why those without God fear or loathe the idea of it. Back to my point. Suffering and death in the grand sceme of things is really not as bad as we make it out to be. It's not the end of the world but we treat it as such, which makes me believe no matter what we put in place of suffering and death it will still be treated as an end of the world event.

Quote:He gave those same people the nature which makes them act that way. We did not design ourselves, did we? That design choice was his, and he owns all of the responsibility for its results.

From my studies I have learned we are ALL "that way" and we/Adam elected for us to be born that way via God's provaunaunce, and He did take responsiablity. What do you think the whole Jesus dying on the cross is about?

Quote:God does not need to micromanage anything. He is simply standing back and allowing all of the evils and maladies of the world take place. Just as easily, he could have set things up so that no evils or maladies take place, with the same level of involvement as he has now, whatever it is.

If you remember creation and the Garden, you would see this is exactly what He did. So what happened? He gave control of this realm over to Adam/Man and Man handed control of himself over to Satan. Therefore Satan rules this realm via the sins man is not willing to let go of.
This is the closest thing Satan has to a realm he has control over.
He has to share it with us, and still not breach the boundries God has set.

If you do not like how is world operates then join the rest of us in the Prayer Jesus taught us to pray in that: "Your Kingdom Come, Your Will Be Done." In this prayer we see that God does not manage this world. The reason we are asked to pray this is to give this world back over to Him. (through the events outlined in the book of revelation)

Quote:Drich, haven't you learned by now not to try using your shitty analogies on me? They never represent the truth of the situation you're describing.

Maybe they repersent a truth your not wanting to see.

Quote:We do not live in a world that any individual can control beyond a very limited extent.

But collectivly there is little we do not have control over.

Quote: We weren't given a car that will always stay completely operational if only we're responsible.

What car does that now?
The idea of responsiablity means for us to take care of what we can and plan for unforseen happenings.

Quote:We're given a car that will break down for reasons that have nothing to do with our level of responsibility.

kinda like real life eh?

Quote: It can be destroyed by a falling tree or another driver losing control for reasons which may or may not be either driver's fault.

And all for what? To be taught responsibility? Why weren't we designed to be inherently responsible people?

we were otherwise God would not have given this world over to us.

Quote:We're riding the bus because God gave us a shitty car and designed us to be poor mechanics. And somehow, that's our fault rather than his.

again God has taken responsiablity for his end through Christ. Now it is up to us to take care of our end by reaching out and accepting what has already been done for us.

---

(January 14, 2014 at 12:11 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(January 13, 2014 at 11:50 am)Drich Wrote: What if He wanted to establish a realm that allows for happenstance/ act and consenquence play out unimpeeded, do you think He could maintain Omni benevolence without manupliating the inhabitance of that realm?

That's what omnipotence means, yes. If he can't, then by definition he can't be omnipotent.

Incidentally, the world you're positing is one where god does impede in the world to begin with; remember, we're talking about a story where he not only has a prophet, but kills children with bears in defense of such. He already intervenes; what use is your argument now?

The arguement I used still reflects our control and ultimate authority/responsiablity of what happenes in this world, even to the point of asking God into our lives where in some cases he uses bears to maul young-ens.

God stands on the outside till you invite Him in.

Am I the only one who reads the title of this thread as "chit stains, please explain"?

(January 14, 2014 at 12:15 am)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Pshhh. God is omnipotent first. With that superpower, he can go ahead and make himself omnibenevolent and omniscient to boot. Put it all together, and you have a paradox, but he's god, so he's allowed to be such, contradictory as it may seem.

Now enter God's description for Himself. "Alpha Omega/The Begining and end to all things." Which means he has the authority to do or be as much of the defination of omni-max God as He wants to be. while at the same time not bound to the defination of Omni-anything.

Think about it, if a deity is bound by the defination of a word or concept is that being all powerful? Vs Having the authority to do what he wants to do?

Can God create a rock so big he can not lift it? An omni-max deity would be in a paradox, The Alpha and Omega could create a rock that big if He wanted to, or couldn't if He didn't want to.. That is the true defination of all powerful.

(January 14, 2014 at 10:57 am)pocaracas Wrote: Am I the only one who reads the title of this thread as "chit stains, please explain"?

ahahahahahahhaa.. ur good!!! u might get a kudos! dooooh!!!

(January 14, 2014 at 10:51 am)Drich Wrote: The arguement I used still reflects our control and ultimate authority/responsiablity of what happenes in this world, even to the point of asking God into our lives where in some cases he uses bears to maul young-ens.

God stands on the outside till you invite Him in.

Yeah, you're not going to refute my argument if you refuse to change the conditions of your original statement, nor address my contentions in any way.

So can god maintain omni-benevolence (presumably in some world that isn't ours!) and allow free will and happenstance, or not? If he can, why isn't he? If he can't, he's not omnipotent.

And why is it that you're ignoring the fact that he already interferes with the world, he just does it to murder children with bears, rather than being benevolent?

(January 14, 2014 at 5:29 am)themonkeyman Wrote: To me this verse raised very big problems such as?

Why does it appear that God of the entire universe only looks after a select handful of people in each generation?

Jesus answers this in the parables of the: wheat and weeds, Grain and Chaff, Sheep and goats. In short not everyone belongs to God.
God only looks after His Children.

Quote:Why does it also appear that God would rather harm another of his created beings for the sake of the first one - Can he not 'Forgive Them'?

If a 'Weed,chaff/goat' were keeping one of His own from Him, then what is it to God to go through that obstical?

Put it this way. If some random kid was taking your childs lunch money would you tell your kid to hand over the money, or see to it that this random kid stopped taking your kids money?

Why is God to forsake one of his own to support what He would know to be a weed/goat (someone who condemns himself to hell?)

Quote:Why when Jesus died on the Cross did no one die Immediately by bears etc.. - Surely Gods on son would have constituted Gods Wrath?

The very point of Christ dying on the cross is to contain God's Wrath to the one on the cross. Jesus died, to take the wrath God had for all of us upon Himself. Once God's wrath had been placed on Christ 'we' are no longer subject to it like the people of the OT.

Quote:What is Gods intrest in the Jews?

Abraham's righteousness. There is a synopsis in Hebrews 11.

Quote: It also appears that they keep turning their back on him despite existence of his presence?

Indeed. That is why I say proof is meaningless without the desire to worship.

Quote:Why even when the Jews turn their back on God he still continues to keep trying with them?

The promise He made to Abraham.

Quote:Yet he ignores other creatures?

yes, because as bad as the jews were they were better than the rest.

Quote:Why does God have it in for the Gentiles? He created them?!

No. God only created Adam, and from Adam God produced Eve, A&E REPRODUCED offspring. We are a reproduction not a creation of God. God in a sense is responsiable for our creation as He created Adam and made reproduction possiable, but we are not all 'Created' as Adam was Created.

---

(January 14, 2014 at 6:51 am)là bạn điên Wrote: That would be the position of a parent who wanted to encourage responsibility and that the walking/riding the bus option was a temporary measure.

This life is not tempory?

Quote:Your God, however, doesn't correct your behaviour (in not believing in him) he tortures you forever. he appears to behave nothing whatsoever like a loving parent

The correction comes in the form of pain and suffering of this life in a fallen world.

Quote:Your god will forgive any atrocity committed against other people but he will never forgive non beleif in him.

not true for we are told it is not enough to simply believe. The Demons believe and shutter, and they are not saved. We are to seek and accept attonement, for without it we are responsiable for our own sins. It is these sins that condemn us.

---

(January 14, 2014 at 8:32 am)truthBtold Wrote: And wheres is the sacrifice if he gets to go back and sit at the right hand of his daddy..

Where was Christ before the cross in relation to the Father?

---

(January 14, 2014 at 11:16 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(January 14, 2014 at 10:51 am)Drich Wrote: The arguement I used still reflects our control and ultimate authority/responsiablity of what happenes in this world, even to the point of asking God into our lives where in some cases he uses bears to maul young-ens.

God stands on the outside till you invite Him in.

Yeah, you're not going to refute my argument if you refuse to change the conditions of your original statement, nor address my contentions in any way.

So can god maintain omni-benevolence (presumably in some world that isn't ours!) and allow free will and happenstance, or not? If he can, why isn't he? If he can't, he's not omnipotent.

And why is it that you're ignoring the fact that he already interferes with the world, he just does it to murder children with bears, rather than being benevolent?

I haven't ignored anything As i said God interacts as He has been invited. If you re read the story of elisha the bears did not attack till elisha curse the 'kids.'

I agree that God is not your version/ does not follow your defination of omnipotent. again as alpha and Omega God does what God wants to do. Not what your defination says He should do.

(January 14, 2014 at 12:20 pm)Drich Wrote: I haven't ignored anything As i said God interacts as He has been invited. If you re read the story of elisha the bears did not attack till elisha curse the 'kids.'

I agree that God is not your version/ does not follow your defination of omnipotent. again as alpha and Omega God does what God wants to do. Not what your defination says He should do.

Ah, again I seem to be more charitable with your meaning since you yourself are; I hadn't dared think you'd position your god this way, because I thought you actually liked the guy.

So essentially you think of god as a kind of passive aggressive hitman, killing on behalf of his chosen few, and willing to save only those who'll beg him for it first. Oh, he'll intercede on your behalf, but only if you help him get his rocks off with a little groveling, eh?

Nevermind how completely factually inaccurate this "god interacts as he's been invited" claim is, since I can furnish people who did ask and got no intercession at all... you've just made your situation worse. Now, you've got a god who can potentially help us all... he just doesn't want to.

Omnibenevolence? That's not even a little benevolent. That god is a king sized dick, worse than any human criminal.

(January 14, 2014 at 12:52 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(January 14, 2014 at 12:20 pm)Drich Wrote: I haven't ignored anything As i said God interacts as He has been invited. If you re read the story of elisha the bears did not attack till elisha curse the 'kids.'

I agree that God is not your version/ does not follow your defination of omnipotent. again as alpha and Omega God does what God wants to do. Not what your defination says He should do.

Ah, again I seem to be more charitable with your meaning since you yourself are; I hadn't dared think you'd position your god this way, because I thought you actually liked the guy.

So essentially you think of god as a kind of passive aggressive hitman, killing on behalf of his chosen few, and willing to save only those who'll beg him for it first. Oh, he'll intercede on your behalf, but only if you help him get his rocks off with a little groveling, eh?

Nevermind how completely factually inaccurate this "god interacts as he's been invited" claim is, since I can furnish people who did ask and got no intercession at all... you've just made your situation worse. Now, you've got a god who can potentially help us all... he just doesn't want to.

Omnibenevolence? That's not even a little benevolent. That god is a king sized dick, worse than any human criminal.

again God does not claim to be omni benevolent, that is a catholic docrine ascribed to God apart from anything scriptural.

We are in this life independant of any intervention from God unless we ask for it or by default helping a nonbeliever helps a believer in some form or fashion.

(January 14, 2014 at 11:01 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 14, 2014 at 12:15 am)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Pshhh. God is omnipotent first. With that superpower, he can go ahead and make himself omnibenevolent and omniscient to boot. Put it all together, and you have a paradox, but he's god, so he's allowed to be such, contradictory as it may seem.

Now enter God's description for Himself. "Alpha Omega/The Begining and end to all things." Which means he has the authority to do or be as much of the defination of omni-max God as He wants to be. while at the same time not bound to the defination of Omni-anything.

Think about it, if a deity is bound by the defination of a word or concept is that being all powerful? Vs Having the authority to do what he wants to do?

Can God create a rock so big he can not lift it? An omni-max deity would be in a paradox, The Alpha and Omega could create a rock that big if He wanted to, or couldn't if He didn't want to.. That is the true defination of all powerful.

I expected some hems and haws in response to my sarcastic remark, but I should have known mental gymnastics would actually follow.