Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 10:05 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
#41
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 15, 2008 at 10:30 am)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 4:20 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: There is no suggestion (no validatable evidence) that he was EVER physical!!!! Pay Attention!
That is not a very strong arguement. Do you know why early first century Christians had to flee into Jordan in the first place?

Non sequitur!

(December 15, 2008 at 10:30 am)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 4:20 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: It's YOUR claim, you do the #&%@ research!!!!
I did the research, and I found out that Christians are executed, and or deported from Jordan. I highly doubt Jordan's leading archaeologist is a Christian believer. http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/11570428/

Adrian has already demonstrated that your Hassan was in fact a Christian (converted 12 years ago) therefore it is reasonable to assume he may have had a pro-Christian agenda.

As a matter of personal policy I don't do theist URL's, they are always a disappointment, they always waste my time.

(December 15, 2008 at 10:30 am)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 4:20 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Archaeologists have evidence that atheists are becoming more convinced that Jesus was real? Shit man ... those archaeologists are something aren't they?
Yup, for hundreds of years we had to hear atheists tell us, "Jesus is imaginary." This cave says "Not so much!"

I repeat, I restated your assertion that archaeologists have evidence that atheists are convinced Jesus Christ was real as a question then noted (somewhat cynically) that those archaeologists were something! For the terminally stupid amongst us I will explain ... they are archaeologists, they investigate archaeological sites and they don't give a flying fig what atheists think so your argument is a non-sequitur. Pay attention!

(December 15, 2008 at 10:30 am)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 4:20 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I never said he was! Pay Attention!
Doesn't matter if Jesus was there or not. The bottom line is, we have found evidence to believe this site was a worship ground for Jesus of Nazereth. Did you research the artifacts that were discovered?

It's YOUR claim, you do the #@%$ing research!

(December 15, 2008 at 10:30 am)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 4:20 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Your words, "The evidence has been exposed" & "People, it's a proven fact that a man called, 'the Christ' existed in the first century."
The evidence lays within the cave. What would the author of the Harry Potter books say if she found out Harry Potter was being worshipped 30 years ago?

You asked where you said it was evidence, your own words exposed that you did ... pay attention!

Referring to Harry Potter books over a claim of religious worship nearly 2000 years before the author was born is what we would call a strawman, it is irrelevant to the point being made.

(December 15, 2008 at 10:30 am)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 4:20 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Not in the slightest bit interested in talking to him certainly not until you provide some evidence to back up your claim.
Talk to the man who made the claim. I've seen the evidence. it's time for you to do your own homework.

I repeat, it's YOUR claim, do your own #@:&%ing research! .

Kyu
Reply
#42
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
Washington Post Wrote:The Jordanian Embassy issued a statement saying a Council of Church Leaders in Amman has "been complaining for many years about the role of missionary groups in Jordan." Christian proselytizing of Muslims is illegal in Jordan.

In off-the-record interviews, several Christians have told The Washington Times that Jordanian government officials tend to listen only to clergy from the historic churches native to the region. Those churches actively work against evangelicals, seeing them as foreign interlopers who undermine the native churches by converting their members.

"It's not the Muslims who are causing me problems," one Christian leader said. "It's the Orthodox."

"It's the bishops," one ministry director said in a phone interview last week, referring to leaders of the Roman Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox and other native churches in Jordan. "There are four bishops that are causing us a lot of trouble."

Dwight Bashir, senior policy analyst for the U.S. Commission on Religious Freedom, said the rash of deportations are the highest he's seen in six years in what has been considered one of the more tolerant Middle Eastern countries.

Middle East Online Wrote:AMMAN - Jordanian Christians are up in arms over the activities of foreign missionaries in the Muslim conservative kingdom which is rich in biblical sites, including the spot where Jesus was baptised.

The row erupted after the government announced last month that it had deported an unspecified number of expatriates for carrying out Christian missionary activities under the guise of charity work.

The move was welcomed by several Christian figures, with many voicing concern that foreign missionaries were seeking to upset the traditionally stable ties between Muslims and Christians in Jordan.

"Missionary groups have hidden agendas and are close to Christian Zionists," asserted former MP Odeh Kawwas, a Greek Orthodox.

Fellow Christian Fahd Kheitan, an outspoken columnist at Al-Arab Al-Yawm newspaper, said the majority of Christians are "very suspicious and worried".

"The (missionaries) target the strong beliefs of traditional churches in Jordan and try to create religious links with the Zionist movement, which is extremely dangerous," said Kheitan.

Some Christian supporters of Israel, notably a segment in the United States, believe the return of Jews to the Holy Land and the 1948 creation of the Jewish state are in line with biblical prophecy.

In February, acting Foreign Minister Nasser Judeh told parliament that "some foreign groups have come to Jordan under the cover of doing charity, but they broke the law and did missionary activities". He did not give figures.

Converting from Islam to Christianity is strictly prohibited in Jordan and foreign missionary groups are banned from seeking converts, although they can run schools, charitable organisations, hospitals and orphanages.

"For years we have been urging the government to close such Christian shops that have nothing to do with Christianity and tolerance," said Kawwas, referring to missionaries who convert Muslims in violation of the law.

"It is an old problem. They create sensitivities and provoke discord among Jordanian Christians, not to mention their threat to Muslim-Christian coexistence," the former lawmaker said.

"These groups don't belong to any church, but they try to hunt followers of other churches and trick some of our Muslim brothers to convert them," he added.

'The situation threatens the internal front'

Christians represent around four percent of Jordan's population of nearly six million, including Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Armenian and Latin rites.

They are well integrated in the kingdom, where one Christian holds a ministerial post while eight percent control seats in the 110-member lower house of parliament.


The tiny desert kingdom is home to the windswept peak of Mount Nebo overlooking the Dead Sea and the hills of Jerusalem, where according to biblical tradition God showed Moses the Promised Land.

It is also where Jordanians say Jesus Christ was baptised by his cousin St John and where the latter preached and was beheaded by Herod the Great, the king of biblical Judea.

Archaeologists discovered ancient churches and baptismal pools on the east bank of the Jordan River, leading them to conclude they had found the place where Jesus was baptised.

The kingdom is also home to several tombs of the Prophet Mohammed's companions and Mount Nebo is a destination for Christian, Muslim and Jewish pilgrims alike who revere Moses.

Columnist Kheitan asserts that Washington has put pressure on its allies in Amman to allow missionaries into the country, where he says these groups have used their relations with some officials to "build a base".

"But the kingdom has realised now that the situation threatens the internal front," Kheitan said.

The authorities have not provided figures about the number of missionaries operating in Jordan, but according to a 2006 report by the US Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labour there are 42 groups.

The government's decision to deport foreign missionaries came as Jordan's Council of Churches warned last month about what it called 40 sects in the kingdom that "threaten national security and create religious discord at the heart of the Christian community and between Muslims and Christians."

In January, the first spark of controversy was lit by a Christian news agency, Compass Direct News, in a report accusing Jordan of cracking down on expatriate Christians by deporting them or denying them residency permit.

Parliament said the report was aimed at "damaging Muslim-Christian relations in Jordan". It also insisted that Jordan's Christians "are an integral part of society, living in peace and harmony with their Muslim brothers".

The church also voiced its concern.

Latin Patriarch Michel Sabbah of Jerusalem and Jordan said recently that some foreign missionaries "have undeclared political positions and we do not want the image of Christianity to be distorted."
Bolding mine.

Jordan allows any religion in its borders. However it is a Muslim state and therefore has very strict laws. One of these is that no special privileges are given to other religions aparts from the ones native to Jordan. Expect no funding for setting up a synagogue, but you are allowed to build one.

You don't seem to understand that Jordan has very strict policies against proselytizing to Muslims. Now whether you agree with the laws of that land or not, if you do it and get caught, you are out on the streets. Jordan does not take kindly to trying to convert Muslims in a Muslim state, in their view that is a crime and you are no longer welcome. It could be worse, in Somalia you would be killed.

This does not mean you are not allowed to stay in that country as a Christian, but you better keep your religion to yourself and not proselytize.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
Reply
#43
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
There is no talking to a Christian,especially a fundamentalist.You could show them every single error and contradiction in thier holy book and they would find a way to disregard it or weasel out some lame explanation as to why it appears the way it is.It's just a waste of time and energy.How many times can you say it's not true and these are the reasons why?Hence my tag line is true regarding christians.They have abandoned reason so trying to make them see reason and open their eyes to reality is like beating a dead horse.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition

http://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/

Reply
#44
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 15, 2008 at 10:55 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Adrian has already demonstrated that your Hassan was in fact a Christian (converted 12 years ago) therefore it is reasonable to assume he may have had a pro-Christian agenda.
He has? It's forbidden in Jordan to try and convert Muslims. If Al-Hassan was Christian, he would be deported or killed.

Quote:As a matter of personal policy I don't do theist URL's, they are always a disappointment, they always waste my time.
I don't do anti-theist websites either. They show supposed errors but, they don't show the answer to the error. Very sneaky, indeed.

Quote:It's YOUR claim, you do the #@%$ing research!
I did the research. I witnessed the coins, pottery, seating arrangements and iron and wooden crosses. Why did these ancient christians carry wooden crosses with them? A rememberance to their Messiah that was just executed by the Roman Army?

Quote:You asked where you said it was evidence, your own words exposed that you did ... pay attention!
The evidence has been exposed. The Messiah lives!

Quote:Referring to Harry Potter books over a claim of religious worship nearly 2000 years before the author was born is what we would call a strawman, it is irrelevant to the point being made.
What would J.K Rowling do if she had evidence of 70 men worshipping Harry Potter in 1979? Wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events?

Quote:I repeat, it's YOUR claim, do your own #@:&%ing research!
I have done the research.. it's an amazing one of a kind discovery. The Messiah existed!

I'm sorry, but evidence has been exposed to the world.

The bottom line is this Jesus figure was being worshipped (33 A.D.) long before the Gospel records (55 A.D.).

You cannot explain nearly two decades.

The Gospels were right.. Jesus lived and died in 33 A.D.
And his followers had to flee to escape persecution by the Romans.
Reply
#45
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 15, 2008 at 9:36 pm)chatpilot Wrote: There is no talking to a Christian,especially a fundamentalist.

And Psalm just proved it! Big Grin
Reply
#46
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 16, 2008 at 3:05 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: I have done the research.. it's an amazing one of a kind discovery. The Messiah existed!

I'm sorry, but evidence has been exposed to the world.

The bottom line is this Jesus figure was being worshipped (33 A.D.) long before the Gospel records (55 A.D.).

You cannot explain nearly two decades.

The Gospels were right.. Jesus lived and died in 33 A.D.
And his followers had to flee to escape persecution by the Romans.

Okay, suppose this very shakey evidence of yours were true. If Jesus lived and had followers, was he a Martin Luther King jr type character? Because I know he could pull quite a crowd at one point. Or was he a magic man, son of god, miracle maker? And where is the evidence for this? Or is the fact that he was admired sufficient evidence for his miraculous water-walking antics? In the same way that the admiration for MLK is proof that he could slam revolving doors...?
Reply
#47
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
What a waste of time!! Just because they had wooden crosses does not validate that they worshipped Jesus.Crosses predate christianity by hundreds of years and it's not an exclusively christian symbol.Not to mention that you did not acknowledge what I said about the gnostics and how they worshipped a messiah as well who was not named in the dead sea scrolls.Many believe that borrowed much of their theology from the gnostics as they did from other pre-christian sources.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition

http://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/

Reply
#48
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 16, 2008 at 5:34 pm)chatpilot Wrote: What a waste of time!! Just because they had wooden crosses does not validate that they worshipped Jesus.Crosses predate christianity by hundreds of years and it's not an exclusively christian symbol.Not to mention that you did not acknowledge what I said about the gnostics and how they worshipped a messiah as well who was not named in the dead sea scrolls.Many believe that borrowed much of their theology from the gnostics as they did from other pre-christian sources.
No one said the wooden crosses were a symbol of Christianity. What I'm saying is these crosses give us a clue that these people witnessed Jesus die on a wooden cross.

This discovery is awesome!

This is a turn of events for people who believe Jesus never lived.

By the way, the Messiah was foretold in the O.T.

“Yea, all the kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper... His name shall endure forever, his name shall be continued as long as the sun, and men shall be blessed in him, all nations shall call him blessed” (Psalm 72:11-12, 17).

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
Reply
#49
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 16, 2008 at 10:03 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: No one said the wooden crosses were a symbol of Christianity. What I'm saying is these crosses give us a clue that these people witnessed Jesus die on a wooden cross.
By that logic, a cup found in the temple means that these people witnessed Jesus at the last supper! The presence of an item does not tell us anything about the people who were in the same place unless it is obvious (for example, the presence of a toilet we would presume people used it to go to the toilet). A cross tells us nothing, as the cross is one of the most simple and over-used symbols in the entire history of history...and for good reason: It's two sticks crossing over each other...
Quote:This discovery is awesome!
This discovery is normal, and hardly worth recognition in the grand scale of things.
Quote:This is a turn of events for people who believe Jesus never lived.
Again, the presence of the church doesn't do anything to prove whether Jesus was a real man or not. I personally think he was a real guy for various other reasons, but this church isn't one of them because it doesn't say anything about the man.
Quote:By the way, the Messiah was foretold in the O.T.
Only if you use the logic that episodes of Star Trek foretold the invention of the mobile phone.
Reply
#50
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
Did it ever occur to you Psalm that if this Jesus existed that he was just trying to fullfil the prophecy by mimicking some of the things foretold about what he would do or say.Think about that for a moment........................Of course he could not rise from the dead.

Also,the Old Testament never said the name Jesus Christ or anything near it.That so called prophecy could be about anyone in any era since like all prophecies it's not specific and can be attached pretty much to anything similar in history.

Not to be insulting but your logic Psalm makes no sense,how could finding crosses in a cave indicate that they saw Jesus die on the cross?In fact the entire New Testament is based on hearsay none of it was written by someone who actually knew Jesus.There is not one first hand account in the New Testament regarding Christ.It's also in question about who actually authored these books since the people they are attributed to is also in doubt.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition

http://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/

Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Church sex abuse: Thousands of paedophiles in French Church zebo-the-fat 8 1201 October 7, 2021 at 1:49 am
Last Post: Rev. Rye
  How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian? KUSA 371 87848 May 3, 2020 at 1:04 am
Last Post: Paleophyte
  Church of England vs Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints vorlon13 13 4122 April 3, 2017 at 1:48 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  Christians - What would you do if it were discovered Jesus never existed? Cecelia 165 33196 September 12, 2015 at 1:20 pm
Last Post: rexbeccarox
Question Problems with Christian Church jiffy 112 23386 August 29, 2015 at 2:39 pm
Last Post: Randy Carson
  Yet more christian logic: christian sues for not being given a job she refuses to do. Esquilax 21 7344 July 20, 2014 at 2:48 pm
Last Post: ThomM
  Mass grave discovered in an abandoned Catholic children's home. Esquilax 46 8649 June 11, 2014 at 1:57 pm
Last Post: Vox
  science has discovered the consistance of god. daandaan 18 4089 October 13, 2013 at 9:40 pm
Last Post: Jackalope
  Atheist origin science has discovered the origin of god. daandaan 2 1570 October 11, 2013 at 6:31 am
Last Post: Kayenneh
  Christian Minister responsible for thousands leaving the church Kayenneh 39 11659 July 26, 2013 at 2:57 pm
Last Post: Faith No More



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)