(April 26, 2010 at 4:40 pm)True Christian Wrote: All of that is actually not that hard to believe, once you acknowledge the possibility of a supernatural, all-powerful being. Also, the Gospels, written in various places at various times by various people, accord on an amazing number of things: even though there are contradictions, most of what the Gospels say is unanimous.

---

That's quite true, once you accept the possibility that magic and witchcraft are real then you can believe anything with no evidence or logical and sceptical enquiry at all..

Quote:Also, the Gospels, written in various places at various times by various people, accord on an amazing number of things: even though there are contradictions, most of what the Gospels say is unanimous.

Except Mark seems to have been written first and "Matthew" and "Luke" were largely copied from it. "John", out of the loop, is far more "out there."


Were I to copy the answers to a math test from the kid sitting next to me we might well have what the teacher considered an amazing "accord" ....especially since I sucked at math.

(April 26, 2010 at 4:40 pm)True Christian Wrote: Thats exactly what i said. There is NOTHING that has been done in the name of religion that hasnt been done in the name of something else.

True, but you don't deny the fact that atrocities have been commited in the name of religion and so potentially would not have happened if the religious reasons for it were not there.

(April 26, 2010 at 4:38 pm)Darwinian Wrote:

(April 26, 2010 at 3:06 pm)True Christian Wrote: I do not condemn non-believers or believers in other religions to an eternity in Hell, i just think they havnt had the luck i had, which is to see the beautiful message of the Christ.

I see atheists as people who are disillusioned view of religion and who do not know what or who to believe, so they just reject God altogether. I can understand easily how people can be disgusted by religion. Terrorism, discrimination, pedophilia. But all of those wrongs that religion has done...are not exclusive to religion, far from it. Most of the time, "religious" genocides have for goal to find a scapegoat to appease the population, nothing more.

What's more religion has undeniably done some good in the world. It has united nations, given people a set of moral values that are good for the well-being of society. For hundreds of years most of the education and medicine was practiced by the Church. Finally most organizations that help the poor sick or homeless are originally Christian.

I am not here to convert you all, just to remind you that religion is not as harmful as you seem to think.

Seem to have got in a bit late here.. That'll teach me for having a nap..

You had me all the way up to the part of your post that I quoted and then you started with those oh so familiar theistic presumptuous assertions.

Firstly, we do not have a disillusioned view of religion as you say, in fact I think most atheists have a pretty good view of what religion is about as we are not part of it and can see it from a beautifully detached perspective.

And why, because we are not like you, do you think that we don't know what to believe, that smacks of extreme arrogance to me. I know exactly what I want to believe and I happily go through life believing it.

And then there's that old chestnut that we 'reject God'. We do nothing of the sort. How can we reject that for which there is no evidence and that we simply don't accept exists. If we have indeed 'rejected God' as you state then I accuse you of rejecting Thor, Zeus, Odin, Apollo and the FSM.

And yes, we have seen this beautiful message of Christ but like all other messages in all other superstitious mythologies we choose to reject it because like all other messages there is no evidence that this character you call Christ (not Jesus) ever existed and it relies on the supernatural for its verisimilitude.

And what good has been done by religion in the world that would or could not have been done anyway by concerned, philanthropic and altruistic individuals? Compare that with a vile, horrendous and abhorrent acts done throughout the ages in the name of one tribes God or deity over another.

I already answered most of this in previous posts (and i know saying that makes me seem obnoxious) but ill reiterate

-i believe in the Christ because of the Gospels
-many atheists have a presumption that any belief is wrong, and will only look at a belief starting with that presumption.
-About the last part of your post, tell me one bad thing that religion has done that could not have been done anyway by violent, immoral and selfish individuals. Compare that the altruistic, generous and selfless acts done throughout the ages in the name of Gods. What you say is a perfect example of the presumption i speak of.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:59 pm)True Christian Wrote: Alright i guess i did not explain myself well enough. What i meant by saying atheists are disillusioned is that they have simply given up altogether on religion because they dont see evidence for it. However there is evidence in the form of the Gospels, the teachings of Jesus.

Whoops! Your ignorance is showing.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:59 pm)True Christian Wrote: Accepting the Gospels is a choice, but i find that many atheists only base their hatred of religion on what its excesses have done, and refuse to see the good that has come out of it because it their minds, no matter what, they start with the presumption that religion is bad. So no matter what anyone say they will always read with this presumption.

There you go hastily generalizing and telling people what they believe and why.

(April 26, 2010 at 3:59 pm)True Christian Wrote: Finally i am NOT cherry picking. Christianity is based on the Christ, hence the name. I reject the Old Testament altogether and accept the Gospels altogether. This is not cherry picking.

And to clarify on me being a "true christian". By that i mean that i base my faith on the Christ, hence the Gospels, and not the Old Testament.

Why hatin' on the Old Testament so much, your buddy Jesus liked it.

(April 26, 2010 at 4:47 pm)darkwolf176 Wrote:

(April 26, 2010 at 4:40 pm)True Christian Wrote: Thats exactly what i said. There is NOTHING that has been done in the name of religion that hasnt been done in the name of something else.

True, but you don't deny the fact that atrocities have been commited in the name of religion and so potentially would not have happened if the religious reasons for it were not there.

You are not reading what i am trying to communicate...yes bad things have been done in the name of religion, but dont deny the fact that good things have happened thanks to religion that would not have happened if religion wasnt there.

(April 26, 2010 at 4:54 pm)True Christian Wrote:

(April 26, 2010 at 4:47 pm)darkwolf176 Wrote:

(April 26, 2010 at 4:40 pm)True Christian Wrote: Thats exactly what i said. There is NOTHING that has been done in the name of religion that hasnt been done in the name of something else.

True, but you don't deny the fact that atrocities have been commited in the name of religion and so potentially would not have happened if the religious reasons for it were not there.

You are not reading what i am trying to communicate...yes bad things have been done in the name of religion, but dont deny the fact that good things have happened thanks to religion that would not have happened if religion wasnt there.

You make a good argument, I agree on this point

(April 26, 2010 at 4:54 pm)True Christian Wrote: ..., but dont deny the fact that good things have happened thanks to religion that would not have happened if religion wasnt there.

But until now you didn't post a single example for that. I also think it is impossible to proof this statement as well as the other one, as we all do not know, how a world without religion would look like.
However, all this does not show the existence of god (even if you could proof it).

(April 26, 2010 at 4:51 pm)True Christian Wrote: -many atheists have a presumption that any belief is wrong, and will only look at a belief starting with that presumption.

No, you've got that all wrong. It's called burden of proof . If you make a claim, you must back it up with sufficient evidence before we accept the claim. If we do not accept the claim that does not mean we think the opposite is true. This is one of the first rules of logic that you should learn if you really want to debate with us. You are making the claim that God and Jesus exist. You have failed to provide evidence of Jesus, you referenced the Gospels, that's it. But lookie here, I've already given a brief summary of why the Gospels are not sufficient evidence for Jesus.

Also you really might benefit from this video, which gives a basic break down of burden of proof, logical arguments, and how lacking a belief doesn't not equal asserting that belief is untrue


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

(April 26, 2010 at 4:54 pm)True Christian Wrote: You are not reading what i am trying to communicate...yes bad things have been done in the name of religion, but dont deny the fact that good things have happened thanks to religion that would not have happened if religion wasnt there.

SO... There is nothing that religious have done that could not been done by secular means...I thank no religion for good things that happen its the PEOPLE in the religion that do good things not the religion its self..... But when you throw hate mongering dogma into the mix here come the atrocities....