(May 16, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Heywood Wrote: Prayer studies make the assumption that God exists and then proceed to test if God answers prayers. That is why they go to lengths to recruit prayers to actually pray.

No, they don't. Why would you think that?

It is a test of prayer with no assumption of mechanism.

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(May 16, 2014 at 10:29 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(May 16, 2014 at 10:27 pm)Losty Wrote: True, but you can't argue that all prayers are scientific except the ones that are 'answered'

I am not arguing prayer works. I am arguing prayer studies are fatally flawed and cannot be relied upon as evidence prayer works or doesn't work.

With that statement you show that you are assuming the existence of god.

Because you are basing your statement of a flaw on a test of the god you are assuming exists. Without a god to be annoyed by the test - no flaw.

(May 16, 2014 at 9:09 pm)Heywood Wrote: I'm not a big believer in the power of prayer for reasons that have nothing to do with the results of prayer studies. That being said, I often hear atheists claim that scientific studies of prayer show that it doesn't work. I cringe that people actually put faith in studies which are obviously fatally flawed. How do you test God? How do you control that variable?

Suppose I am a researcher looking for evidence for the "power of prayer". I ask my participants to pray for a certain group of heart patients. Does God actually consider those prayers to be prayers or merely elements in a "scientific" study? Maybe God has decided he will not be tested and ignores those prayers or maybe he decides to apply the "graces" from those "prayers" to people not under the scrutiny of the researcher.

There is a reason researchers will often keep the true purpose of a study away from the test subjects....they don't want the study to influence the actions of their subjects. With God that is impossible to do. A researcher studying the power of prayer has to hope that his subject, God, will cooperate in the study...he can't trick God into cooperating.

Second, Prayer studies will contain a control group of people for whom prayers are not offered. But the researchers cannot guarantee that prayers are not offered for this group. A patient who is part of the not prayed for control group.....may mention he has a heart problem to a friend not part of or privy to the study....the friend then says a prayer for the patient. It is simply impossible to have an untainted control group. Somebody, outside the study is always going to know the patients condition.....and might pray for them.

Can any atheists point to a prayer study that isn't flawed?

Seems like the result that would always come about is this. A have your cake and eat it scenario.

1. Study concludes that prayer is nothing more than placebo, with the effect that it is no more or less effective than doung nothing at all - decried as unfair due to impossiblity of quantifying personal thoughts/actions if either group(s).
2. Study concludes there is something to prayer and that, overall, the prayer group 'gained' relative to the control group (whatever that gain was is assumed here) - study is hailed as evidence of the efficacy of prayer.

Would you conclude that any study that shows prayer to be effective would also be defunct by virtue that you conclude point 1 is also true?

Heywood, why do you think that making prayer more unfalsifiable improves your case for it, or the case for your god?

Heywood,

I think there is a flaw in your argument with regard to the original study. The issue isn't merely that those people who were being prayed for and didn't know it did neither better nor worse that those not being prayed for. The issue is that those that were being prayed for, and knew it, actually did worse than those not being prayed for.

This study showed not only that prayer appears to be ineffective but it can actually make matters worse - probably due to impact on psychology of the recipient.

God might have chosen to ignore the prayers as part of a scientific test - but to make matters worse? What a churlish God you have!

(May 17, 2014 at 12:14 am)Chuck Wrote: Can you suggest a prayer study that is, in your considered, opinion, not flawed, and yet is, through some explicable mechanism, capable of actually detecting the Inefficacy of prayer should praying to Jesus actually be ineffective?

I get it. A non flawed study is one that, somehow, anyhow, arrived at the conclusion that praying to god works but praying to ally doesn't. The flaw study is one which would have been considered unflawed if it detected that praying to Allah doesn't work but praying to Jesus works.

I might say I am holding my breath, but I would have to be truly immortal to wait that long, whether holding my breath or not.

I cannot suggest any prayer study that wasn't flawed regardless of its results. I don't conflate results with methodology like you seem to be doing.

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(May 17, 2014 at 3:51 am)Esquilax Wrote: Heywood, why do you think that making prayer more unfalsifiable improves your case for it, or the case for your god?

This thread isn't about whether prayer works or if my God exists. It is about the prayer studies being fatally flawed.

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(May 17, 2014 at 3:57 am)max-greece Wrote: God might have chosen to ignore the prayers as part of a scientific test - but to make matters worse? What a churlish God you have!

Most studies the prayer is offered to a God who condemned all of humanity for the action of Adam. They are testing for evidence for a churlish God.....but their tests are unreliable.

If prayer works why are there so many starving theist children? Why doesn't god help them instead of helping someone score a goal or find their car keys for a change?

(May 17, 2014 at 12:14 am)Chuck Wrote:

(May 16, 2014 at 9:09 pm)Heywood Wrote: I'm not a big believer in the power of prayer for reasons that have nothing to do with the results of prayer studies. That being said, I often hear atheists claim that scientific studies of prayer show that it doesn't work. I cringe that people actually put faith in studies which are obviously fatally flawed. How do you test God? How do you control that variable?

Suppose I am a researcher looking for evidence for the "power of prayer". I ask my participants to pray for a certain group of heart patients. Does God actually consider those prayers to be prayers or merely elements in a "scientific" study? Maybe God has decided he will not be tested and ignores those prayers or maybe he decides to apply the "graces" from those "prayers" to people not under the scrutiny of the researcher.

There is a reason researchers will often keep the true purpose of a study away from the test subjects....they don't want the study to influence the actions of their subjects. With God that is impossible to do. A researcher studying the power of prayer has to hope that his subject, God, will cooperate in the study...he can't trick God into cooperating.

Second, Prayer studies will contain a control group of people for whom prayers are not offered. But the researchers cannot guarantee that prayers are not offered for this group. A patient who is part of the not prayed for control group.....may mention he has a heart problem to a friend not part of or privy to the study....the friend then says a prayer for the patient. It is simply impossible to have an untainted control group. Somebody, outside the study is always going to know the patients condition.....and might pray for them.

Can any atheists point to a prayer study that isn't flawed?

Can you suggest a prayer study that is, in your considered, opinion, not flawed, and yet is, through some explicable mechanism, capable of actually detecting the Inefficacy of prayer should praying to Jesus actually be ineffective?

I get it. A non flawed study is one that, somehow, anyhow, arrived at the conclusion that praying to god works but praying to ally doesn't. The flaw study is one which would have been considered unflawed if it detected that praying to Allah doesn't work but praying to Jesus works.

I might say I am holding my breath, but I would have to be truly immortal to wait that long, whether holding my breath or not.

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(May 16, 2014 at 9:42 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Jesus said that if a believer asked for anything in prayer that he would give it to the person. If you believe in Jesus pray to him and ask for what you want. It's therefore easy to determine if prayer works.

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That's a faulty question since countless people experienced years of combat and didn't get injured at all.

And countless people experienced years of combat and didn't get injured, without praying.

Hmmm, how did that happen?

And yet undoubtedly many beneath these crosses did pray, and perhaps they prayed to the right gods and are in Valhalla now, rather than sucking Jesus cock in a dreary eternity of enforced make belief happiness? How come?

This reminds me of the comment (once again, I forget by whom; attestation would be appreciated), 'That there are no atheists in foxholes isn't an argument against atheism, but against foxholes.'

Boru

(May 17, 2014 at 4:35 am)jesus_wept Wrote: If prayer works why are there so many starving theist children? Why doesn't god help them instead of helping someone score a goal or find their car keys for a change?

In post 1 sentence 1 of this thread, I essentially claimed that prayer likely does not work.....so I am not sure why you even bother to ask that question. Again this isn't a thread about whether prayer works or does not. It is a thread about prayer studies being fatally flawed and unreliable.

(May 17, 2014 at 4:38 am)Heywood Wrote:

(May 17, 2014 at 4:35 am)jesus_wept Wrote: If prayer works why are there so many starving theist children? Why doesn't god help them instead of helping someone score a goal or find their car keys for a change?

In post 1 of this said, I claimed that prayer likely does not work.....so I am not sure why you even bother to ask that question. Again this isn't a thread about whether prayer works or does not. It is a thread about prayer studies being fatally flawed and unreliable.

I'm sorry the point went over your head but the fact is that we don't need "studies" to see that praying is delusional bullshit.

(May 17, 2014 at 4:43 am)jesus_wept Wrote:

(May 17, 2014 at 4:38 am)Heywood Wrote: In post 1 of this said, I claimed that prayer likely does not work.....so I am not sure why you even bother to ask that question. Again this isn't a thread about whether prayer works or does not. It is a thread about prayer studies being fatally flawed and unreliable.

I'm sorry the point went over your head but the fact is that we don't need "studies" to see that praying is delusional bullshit.

We definitely don't need flawed/unreliable studies...