I honestly cannot stand the "I was a terrible person who made bad choices before I was Christian" argument.

I suppose at some level we all expect others to think and make choices in the same basic ways we do, but to assume everyone else needs Jesus because of your past experiences speaks more about the internal state of someone who couldn't behave ethically, and made a lot of bad choices without an authority to guide them. And I'm not sure why anyone would flaunt that.

Of course, one of the conversion tactics of Christianity seems to be exaggerating past mistakes.

A compulsive masturbator, grifter, and con artist respectively would probably all give equal "I was a bad person without Jesus" speeches, without getting into detail.

It's the same with the "everything happens for a reason" saying.

(May 24, 2014 at 5:05 am)Godschild Wrote:

(May 24, 2014 at 2:33 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: If a person is a true Christian then he can do all of the things Jesus did and much more. If you haven't done those things then you aren't a true Christian.

Please reference the material that proves your statement, I would believe the only place that could supply such references would be the Bible.

GC

Bible Wrote:Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you
can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Romans 8:11
If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

As far as I know, Jesus didn't even move a mountain. And it's pretty clear according to the bible that gods power
holds all things together and commands everything. So technically, yeah, you are supposed to be able to do anything
god wants you to do. Unfortunately for you, he's witholding those special power source keys until the "end of days".

Quote:John 15:5

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me
you can do nothing."

I see a whole lot of people "apart from him" doing something. Atheists and Muslims and Jehovah's witness and
Mormons , Buddhists, Hindu's, Jews, and all of the other people you claim are without your god and his son Jesus
Christ.

Quote:Exodus 15:26 He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his
eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases
I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you."

Is your God just evil or does he seriously not watch the news?! I'll spare you the starving children photo this
time and opt for this video instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUTaCjOuy8M

I guess these little ones just didn't pray purely enough-- or didn't have the faith of a child.

I rather like to think I'm terms of Reality when it comes to childhood cancer, or when I visit my friend Heather
who fell off a horse and can't move neck down anymore. In nature, cancer is naturally occurring and there are
reasons for it. In all reality, my friend losing her physical freedom isn't part of some 'plan'. Unfortunately
for us we are just as susceptible to cancer or damage as anything else--because we are no different than a mouse, a tree,
or a grain of rice. I mention rice because it has almost double the amount of genes as humans do, which I find
an interesting fact to throw at those who think they're hardwired by god to be superior. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1910949.stm

(May 24, 2014 at 5:05 am)Godschild Wrote:

(May 24, 2014 at 2:33 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: If a person is a true Christian then he can do all of the things Jesus did and much more. If you haven't done those things then you aren't a true Christian.

Please reference the material that proves your statement, I would believe the only place that could supply such references would be the Bible.

GC

You know damn well what verses he was referring to. You just like to posture like an ass.

How about you grow up and stop using that ploy. If you wish to say that he's interpreting the verse wrong, go ahead and say that, don't waste our time with dishonest feints of ignorance. It is a form of lying.

(May 25, 2014 at 9:34 pm)Luckie Wrote: I'm pretty sure by demons he means bad characteristics and by drove out he means he corrected himself (with gods help of course!).

Luckie even knows you guys know little about scripture and people in general.

GC

(May 26, 2014 at 2:42 am)Godschild Wrote:

(May 25, 2014 at 9:34 pm)Luckie Wrote: I'm pretty sure by demons he means bad characteristics and by drove out he means he corrected himself (with gods help of course!).

Luckie even knows you guys know little about scripture and people in general.

GC

The problem with Luckie's statement is that the Bible describes demons as discrete visible entities that infect people and not as simply bad characteristics as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. When Jesus drove out some demons they jumped into some pigs and the pigs ran off a cliff to their death. And the demons spoke human language. That makes them different from bad characteristics.

(May 26, 2014 at 3:27 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(May 26, 2014 at 2:42 am)Godschild Wrote: Luckie even knows you guys know little about scripture and people in general.

GC

The problem with Luckie's statement is that the Bible describes demons as discrete visible entities that infect people and not as simply bad characteristics as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. When Jesus drove out some demons they jumped into some pigs and the pigs ran off a cliff to their death. And the demons spoke human language. That makes them different from bad characteristics.

No no no, you're doing this wrong. Whenever something in the bible seems factually incorrect or impossible, it's a metaphor. Clearly, any time a Christian says something idiotic, they were speaking metaphorically

The funny thing is that when the Bible is read with due diligence you can see that it states it's just a sophisticated joke.

(May 25, 2014 at 11:29 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(May 24, 2014 at 5:05 am)Godschild Wrote: Please reference the material that proves your statement, I would believe the only place that could supply such references would be the Bible.

GC

By your command:

When did please and I believe become words of command, you're off on the wrong foot to start with, so I have doubt you can understand anything you posted below.

WoG Wrote:John 14:12-1 (CJB) = "12 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever trusts in me will also do the works I do! Indeed, he will do greater ones, because I am going to the Father. 13 In fact, whatever you ask for in my name, I will do; so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me for something in my name, I will do it."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...V;NET;NKJV

I kindly suggest that as a believer you should read and understand the fairy tale that you profess to believe in.

Since I do not consider the Bible a fairy tale and you do, I suspect you have no real understanding of scripture.
You seem to be mixing up belief and trust, sure there are many who do not have that level of trust, just as I'm sure you do not have complete trust in many people in your life.
You really think that if I asked Jesus to kill you and display your dead body in a town square He would, just how would that glorify the Father. You need to understand what true asking is about, Jesus was speaking of the spiritual, that which is within the will of the Father.

WoG Wrote:This is an interesting passage because Jesus clearly states that believers who trust in him can do all of the things that were attributed him.

One big thing you have missed out on, Jesus had no powers here on earth, everything came from the Father, Jesus was to be the perfect human, He was already the perfect God, so He needed to receive the Father's power.

WoG Wrote:So give it a try. Walk on water on a nice summer day. Lay your hands on the sick and paralyzed and cure them. Cast out demons. That guy who just killed those people in California could have used your help in ridding himself of the pesky demons that infected him. Make a spit ball of mud and cure a blind person by placing it on his eyelids. Go levitate a mountain. Go resurrect a corpse that has been dead for four days.

Your saying I should ask for physical powers when Jesus wants me to have spiritual powers. Those things Jesus did actually came from the Father, Jesus had no such powers on earth. Even if those were accomplished through me you would have an excuse for why they were not real. I personally have had hands laid on me and healed.

Quote:Now, if you can't do those things and more how can you trust Jesus when he said that he will give you whatever you ask for in prayer?

Being that I know what Jesus meant about asking I've had prayer answered for specific things, some where physical but for a spiritual purpose. Of coarse you want believe me, but that's okay most didn't believe Jesus the Son of God.

GC

---

(May 26, 2014 at 3:53 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The funny thing is that when the Bible is read with due diligence you can see that it states it's just a sophisticated joke.

Show us where the Bible says it's a joke.

GC

---

(May 26, 2014 at 3:27 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(May 26, 2014 at 2:42 am)Godschild Wrote: Luckie even knows you guys know little about scripture and people in general.

GC

The problem with Luckie's statement is that the Bible describes demons as discrete visible entities that infect people and not as simply bad characteristics as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. When Jesus drove out some demons they jumped into some pigs and the pigs ran off a cliff to their death. And the demons spoke human language. That makes them different from bad characteristics.

Problem is you can't recognize the differences in what Jesus did and what ChadWooter's was speaking of.

(May 26, 2014 at 4:35 am)Godschild Wrote:

(May 25, 2014 at 11:29 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: By your command:

When did please and I believe become words of command, you're off on the wrong foot to start with, so I have doubt you can understand anything you posted below.

WoG Wrote:John 14:12-1 (CJB) = "12 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever trusts in me will also do the works I do! Indeed, he will do greater ones, because I am going to the Father. 13 In fact, whatever you ask for in my name, I will do; so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me for something in my name, I will do it."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...V;NET;NKJV

I kindly suggest that as a believer you should read and understand the fairy tale that you profess to believe in.

Since I do not consider the Bible a fairy tale and you do, I suspect you have no real understanding of scripture.
You seem to be mixing up belief and trust, sure there are many who do not have that level of trust, just as I'm sure you do not have complete trust in many people in your life.
You really think that if I asked Jesus to kill you and display your dead body in a town square He would, just how would that glorify the Father. You need to understand what true asking is about, Jesus was speaking of the spiritual, that which is within the will of the Father.

WoG Wrote:This is an interesting passage because Jesus clearly states that believers who trust in him can do all of the things that were attributed him.

One big thing you have missed out on, Jesus had no powers here on earth, everything came from the Father, Jesus was to be the perfect human, He was already the perfect God, so He needed to receive the Father's power.

WoG Wrote:So give it a try. Walk on water on a nice summer day. Lay your hands on the sick and paralyzed and cure them. Cast out demons. That guy who just killed those people in California could have used your help in ridding himself of the pesky demons that infected him. Make a spit ball of mud and cure a blind person by placing it on his eyelids. Go levitate a mountain. Go resurrect a corpse that has been dead for four days.

Your saying I should ask for physical powers when Jesus wants me to have spiritual powers. Those things Jesus did actually came from the Father, Jesus had no such powers on earth. Even if those were accomplished through me you would have an excuse for why they were not real. I personally have had hands laid on me and healed.

Quote:Now, if you can't do those things and more how can you trust Jesus when he said that he will give you whatever you ask for in prayer?

Being that I know what Jesus meant about asking I've had prayer answered for specific things, some where physical but for a spiritual purpose. Of coarse you want believe me, but that's okay most didn't believe Jesus the Son of God.

GC

---

(May 26, 2014 at 3:53 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The funny thing is that when the Bible is read with due diligence you can see that it states it's just a sophisticated joke.

Show us where the Bible says it's a joke.

GC

---

(May 26, 2014 at 3:27 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The problem with Luckie's statement is that the Bible describes demons as discrete visible entities that infect people and not as simply bad characteristics as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. When Jesus drove out some demons they jumped into some pigs and the pigs ran off a cliff to their death. And the demons spoke human language. That makes them different from bad characteristics.

Problem is you can't recognize the differences in what Jesus did and what ChadWooter's was speaking of.

(May 26, 2014 at 12:08 am)Luckie Wrote:

(May 24, 2014 at 5:05 am)Godschild Wrote: Please reference the material that proves your statement, I would believe the only place that could supply such references would be the Bible.

GC

Bible Wrote:Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you
can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Romans 8:11
If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

As far as I know, Jesus didn't even move a mountain. And it's pretty clear according to the bible that gods power
holds all things together and commands everything. So technically, yeah, you are supposed to be able to do anything
god wants you to do. Unfortunately for you, he's witholding those special power source keys until the "end of days".

Was there a real need for Him to raise a mountain. Through the Father He healed the sick, healed the lame, healed the blind, removed demons and most people still did not believe in Him, so why move a mountain.

Bible Wrote:John 15:5

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me
you can do nothing."

Luckie Wrote:I see a whole lot of people "apart from him" doing something. Atheists and Muslims and Jehovah's witness and
Mormons , Buddhists, Hindu's, Jews, and all of the other people you claim are without your god and his son Jesus
Christ.

Really, you see those people bearing the spiritual fruit to bring the lost to Christ, as Jesus said apart from Him no one can do such a thing.

Bible Wrote:Exodus 15:26 He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his
eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases
I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you."

Luckie Wrote:Is your God just evil or does he seriously not watch the news?! I'll spare you the starving children photo this
time and opt for this video instead.

God knows before the news reveals to us the problems going on in the world, tell me why do you think God should heal all the sick or solve any terrible matters that man has made. Why shouldn't He let us wallow in this mire we've made. Do you believe He has to because He is God or is this just your defensive argument against God.

Luckie Wrote:I guess these little ones just didn't pray purely enough-- or didn't have the faith of a child.

Maybe someone like you (not pointing directly at you) did not do as God asked, God created us to help each other, could be God actually called someone to be a doctor and they refused and so some child suffered for the lack of another. God created us to help others and I know you do but for different reasons. Those reasons still wouldn't cancel out the heart God gave you to help others, you follow your heart and others benefit from what God gave you. Doesn't matter whither you like it or not, God is accomplishing things even through those who refuse to see and hear Him. He's at work in others lives no matter how they believe, omniscience and omnipotence have their benefits, even with those who do not believe.

Luckie Wrote:I rather like to think I'm terms of Reality when it comes to childhood cancer, or when I visit my friend Heather
who fell off a horse and can't move neck down anymore. In nature, cancer is naturally occurring and there are
reasons for it. In all reality, my friend losing her physical freedom isn't part of some 'plan'.

You're right cancer has a reason, mostly from all the chemicals man has introduced into the world, God didn't do it. You see I'm one who doesn't believe God goes around giving people illnesses, we suffer from our own greed and self importance. I do believe those who are unfortunate enough to contract a terrible disease can find peace in God and at times special healing. God gave us men and women smart enough to be doctors to help mankind out off the physical problems we've caused for ourselves. God makes it rain on the good and the bad, the sun shines on the same and this holds for the sick. God's grace reaches far and wide.
You are probably correct about Heather, it was most likely an accident, no one's fault, but rest assured God has a plan for her if she accepts it, why hasn't He healed her I don't know, the future doesn't belong to me. God can giver her a spiritual freedom.

Luckie Wrote:Unfortunately for us we are just as susceptible to cancer or damage as anything else--because we are no different than a mouse, a tree,
or a grain of rice. I mention rice because it has almost double the amount of genes as humans do, which I find
an interesting fact to throw at those who think they're hardwired by god to be superior.

Actually I do not agree, God has placed us far above anything else in this world, Jesus said how much more will He do for us than the sparrow He gives shelter and food, think spiritual, things become far clearer.
If it's your desire to believe you are worth no more than a grain of rice, then have at it. Personally I see myself far superior to what I eat and I know God does and I know so on a personal level and experience with Him.

GC