Dodge, dip, dive, duck and .....dodge!
P.S. How fucking dare you presume to know what anyone else thinks. Arrogant prick.
P.P.S. There was a big paragraph posted by Esquilax, did you miss it? Or are you simply incapable of mounting any kind of rebuttal?

Be prepared for another disappointing answer.

(June 16, 2014 at 7:17 am)fr0d0 Wrote: If that were true, you would stop showcasing and go look up the word and see that it explains why. I've linked it for you, you have no excuse.

I looked, and then if you look, you'll see I corrected you: we're talking about evidence in general, not merely empirically measured scientific standards. At least, that's what I was talking about when I made the first statement you responded to, the idea that you should need some indication of a thing before you believe it exists.

Was this really just one long exercise in demonstrating how poor your reading comprehension is?

Quote:I suspect though that you're far more interested in stroking your ego.

Goodness, we wouldn't want anyone doing that would we!

(June 16, 2014 at 3:59 am)Irrational Wrote:

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: And you shall know that I'm so convinced with faith and religion .. and what you say about faith and believers doesn't really effect me

You may think this is admirable, but an unshakable faith only tells me that you are not open to correction in case you are wrong.

Think of it this way. If you are wrong, how can you tell you are wrong?

No No No I'm actually against shutting new ideas .. I like to think the opposite way all the time.. and "what if I'm wrong".. is my favorite question.

You can see that from my avater I think

The thing is that I already did my homework.. I already asked the question what if God didn't really exist long time ago.. and what they've been telling me .. is really really old .. I've been there! had the same conversations before.

I'm open to "new" ideas .. if there are any.

and I know that some of you probably read about Islam before and I know that there tuns of information.. the whole Quran is there online and many pictures are available on youtube.. if you want its there go for it!

I'm actually here to study some ideas.. I want to know why there are atheists!! how they think.. I actually classified atheists already

and I'm so open to talk with people who are different than me and understand them so easily ... with an open heart.

even if I'm trying to convert you then that should be because I love you and wish you a better life.. So why being violent and impolite ??

I don't think I'm better than you .. not at all!! Even my God told me to not judge anyone's faith or say that person is in heaven or in hell.. cuz only God knows.. I don't know what's inside your hearts and minds!! I can't judge you.. NEVER

Quote:In answer to your question concerning what makes me an atheist and how atheism has affected my life, it's simply the fact that there are no observable/testable evidence for the existence of any God, and that the only evidence theists seem to have to offer are in the form of either philosophical arguments that really just amount to word play or subjective experiences that could easily be psychological/emotional experiences.

As to what I get out of being an atheist, it's mainly that I get to live my life the way I see fit without being unwarrantably restricted by certain dogma for which the evidence pointing to its validity is lacking.

I'm also a better person as an atheist than I was as a religious person. For one, I am much more empathetic/understanding towards others (especially homosexuals, transgendered, and women) than I was before. I also don't feel I have a reason to feel superior to anyone anymore. And I have become a much honest person than ever before. When I was religious, I was continually enabled by the fellow religious to be intellectually dishonest and not give heed to the validity of alternate ideas and truths no matter the evidence pointing to them. Nowadays, if you show me real evidence that contradicts what I currently believe on any topic, I am much more open to it and will accommodate my belief accordingly (if not immediately, then gradually and eventually in a relatively short period of time).

---

I forgot to add that I'm sorry you lost two babies. Must have been some painful experiences for you.

I think you really became a better person.. really !

I can see that you are so understanding and open minded

and thank you for your concern about my babies that's so kind

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: If you want me to say why I'm muslim and not sikhi.. I will! But I don't think that you care ..

I'm interested in knowing why.

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: I believe on God because...

I can feel God all the time.. when I'm sad and when I'm happy.. and when something bad happens to me.. I start thinking why ?! what do you want me to see?! and then I know the wisdom behind it..

I had a dream about Apollo and, in the dream, I knew he was a god. I also had an experience where the Earth was a goddess. Somebody posted an interesting article in another topic so I'm going to copy and paste most of my reply here because I think it's relevant.

(June 16, 2014 at 2:13 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: This guy: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/06/10...es-in-god/

From the article about the atheist who believes in God.

Quote:It seems to me that there is an offstage and an onstage quality to my existence. I live onstage, but I sense another crew working offstage. Sometimes I hear their voices “singing” in a way that’s as eerily beautiful as the offstage chorus in an opera.

My youngest grandchildren Lucy (5) and Jack (3) are still comfortable with this paradoxical way of seeing reality.

Most grownups don’t have the transparent humility to deal with the fact that unknowing is OK. But Lucy and Jack seem to accept that something may never have happened but can still be true.

I know what he means in those bolded sentences. I'm very much aware of the offstage existence because I can sense that, deep down, my unconscious mind is dreaming while I'm awake. If I tune into it I get experiences like the Earth is a goddess. I believe you when you say you can feel what you interpret as being God but, from my point of view, your experience is purely subjective the same as my experience of the Earth being a goddess was purely subjective.

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: now you tell me what makes you an atheist

Ever since I was a child I've been interested in comparative religion, mythology and folklore. I then discovered Jungian psychology. Humans have experiences of something which they interpret as being one deity or another. If these experiences are objective reality it means that every god and goddess humans have worshipped must be real which makes nonsense of religions promoting their deity as the only one which exists.

In my personal world view things don't have to be literally true in order to be symbolically true. If someone believes that a deity is supporting them through a crises it's a symbol of them drawing on their own inner strength etc.

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: and how did that affected your life and made you a better person?

I'm aware that there is a dark side to human nature but I don't regard it as original sin or the result of giving in to temptation from demons or whatever.

Timeline Of Human Evolution

We are biologically programmed to be humans but some of the programming comes from millions of years ago. Behaviour patterns which would have been useful to ancestors who were reptiles or early primates living in trees aren't always useful to us now. For example, conflicts over territory are very common in other animal species but do we really need them in the 21st century when our species is armed to the teeth with lethal weapons rather than just being armed with teeth?

I try to be aware of the dark side of my own nature and not give in to it. Jungian psychology works for me although it's not everyone's cup of tea.

The Shadow In Jungian Psychology

Quote:The shadow is an archetypal form that serves as the focus for material that has been repressed from consciousness; its contents include those tendencies desires and memories that are rejected by the individual as incompatible with the persona and contrary to social standards and ideals. The shadow contains all the negative tendencies the individual wishes to deny, including our animal instincts, as well as undeveloped positive and negative qualities.

The stronger our persona is and the more we identify with it, the more we deny other parts of ourselves. The shadow represents what we consider to be inferior in our personality and also that which we have neglected and never developed in ourselves. In dreams, a shadow figure may appear as an animal, a dwarf, a vagrant, or any other low-status figure.

The shadow is most dangerous when unrecognized. Then the individual tends to project his or her unwanted qualities onto others or to become dominated by the shadow without realizing it. Images of evil, the devil and the concept of original sin are all aspects of the shadow archetype. The more the shadow material is made conscious, the less it can dominate. But the shadow is an integral part of our nature, and it can never be simply eliminated. A person who claims to be without a shadow is not a complete individual but a two-dimensional caricature, denying the mixture of good and evil that is necessarily present in all of us.

One group of people projecting their own dark natures onto another group of people has led to all kinds of horrors in history. "They are a threat/evil/not fully human etc. so must be eliminated." Humans are the only animals who fight each other over beliefs - "My religion/version of this religion is THE TRUTH - convert or die."

(June 16, 2014 at 3:25 am)ska88 Wrote: remember we can always share ideas with a nice conversation.

I'm always interested in what people believe even if I don't believe it myself. Your beliefs obviously mean a lot to you and I regard them as having value for you if they helped you deal with the loss of your babies. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

(June 16, 2014 at 8:03 am)ska88 Wrote: The thing is that I already did my homework.. I already asked the question what if God didn't really exist long time ago.. and what they've been telling me .. is really really old .. I've been there! had the same conversations before.

I would suggest you not think homework is over. For me, I may be an atheist now, but that does not mean I must be an atheist for life no matter the evidence made available later on.

Quote:even if I'm trying to convert you then that should be because I love you and wish you a better life.. So why being violent and impolite ??

Personally, I don't think you could ever convert me to your faith as I could never see myself accept your god Allah as God, but you could still convince me it's true. All I need is the evidence. No evidence, no reason to believe.

(June 16, 2014 at 7:31 am)Esquilax Wrote: I looked, and then if you look, you'll see I corrected you: we're talking about evidence in general, not merely empirically measured scientific standards. At least, that's what I was talking about when I made the first statement you responded to, the idea that you should need some indication of a thing before you believe it exists.

Yes I ignored your dodge.

What evidence besides empirical evidence would you be prepared to accept?

As I've said earlier, your willingness to open the field to include non empirical evidence is a smokescreen. You have no idea what that means, you're just using it as a get out clause.

Still I see you refuse to do any leg work. I guess you're just not interested in anything but your own ideas.

(June 16, 2014 at 8:28 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(June 16, 2014 at 7:31 am)Esquilax Wrote: I looked, and then if you look, you'll see I corrected you: we're talking about evidence in general, not merely empirically measured scientific standards. At least, that's what I was talking about when I made the first statement you responded to, the idea that you should need some indication of a thing before you believe it exists.

Yes I ignored your dodge.

What evidence besides empirical evidence would you be prepared to accept?

As I've said earlier, your willingness to open the field to include non empirical evidence is a smokescreen. You have no idea what that means, you're just using it as a get out clause.

Still I see you refuse to do any leg work. I guess you're just not interested in anything but your own ideas.

As far as I know, only empirical evidence seems powerful enough to derive knowledge from. Do you have any other method I don't know of that you believe I should trust?

Take a look in the other thread you just posted in irrational.

Oh look! Another non-answer from frodo! How surprising!

(June 16, 2014 at 8:28 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Yes I ignored your dodge.

Dodge?! I started the fucking conversation with that line! You can't dodge by referring to the initial point of discussion!

Quote:What evidence besides empirical evidence would you be prepared to accept?

As I've said earlier, your willingness to open the field to include non empirical evidence is a smokescreen. You have no idea what that means, you're just using it as a get out clause.

It's not a smokescreen, I am willing to consider the idea of other evidence types; you seem to think that some exist, unless you're being an intractable loon. I'm asking what you think those are, and your utter refusal to engage in the conversation hints at the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.

As regards evidence that isn't empirical, I'm prepared to consider pretty much any kind of evidence, presuming that it's in some way informed by reality. That's essentially my only requirement, as claims made without reference to the world that we exist in have no point of origin and no method of verification.

Quote:Still I see you refuse to do any leg work. I guess you're just not interested in anything but your own ideas.

This is fascinating: you make a claim, and then spend the rest of your time in the thread tutting at everyone else for not doing the work to support it for you. Is there no end to your bs?