It feels wrong to me, it feels awfully wrong.

(June 17, 2014 at 9:06 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I guess I'd also like parents to appreciate the weight of the decision, (the same as I'd wish that other parents were spared the pain)... If only for their long term mental health.

I think one of the most hurtful smears handed out to women who get abortions is the idea that most of them are being thoughtless and whimsical about it. I would imagine that most women who have abortions struggle mightily with the decision, both before and after, and I further imagine that only a tiny handful (even less than the tiny handful who do it late-term and/or more than two or three times) can do it without feeling as if it's a big deal. And that's before the anti-choice element gets around to making it a hundred times worse by demonizing them and condemning them for the decision they made.

When I was young we held signs that said Murderers and things of that nature outside an abortion clinic. I also (at around 14) had the privilege of spending a day with a woman I looked up to and learning about her abortion. How she felt about having it and how she felt about how she was treated by people who had known she had it. After that day I felt so guilty about what I had done, what I had been a part of. We were doing nothing to stop or lessen abortions and we were not there to help those women. We were just spreading hatred and pain for no good reason. This is just one of those issues that really gets me. I don't care how you feel about abortion or what side you choose to be on. Shaming women for having an abortion is completely disgusting. Kicking someone when they're down screams of hypocrisy and cowardice.

(June 17, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It feels wrong to me, it feels awfully wrong.

Late term I agree with you. More about that next post.

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Assuming the fetus is a person (which I don't think he grants), Esquilax uses the analogy of should anyone be forced to be an organ donor, or to hook their body up to anyone else to provide life support. I would say not. There is no such moral duty.

But, I think it a false analogy. After all the fetus didn't demand the mother take it in at gun point. A better analogy might be this. You are clutching a rope in danger of falling into an abyss and certain death. You caught the rope. Someone else caught your ankles. You can't support both of you. Is it moral to kick them loose. I would say yes.

But suppose someone has grasped your hands and will not let got and you are now both sure to be saved. Is it moral to kick the person clutching your ankles loose now? I would say not. Sure, your arms might hurt more and it might even dislocate your shoulders but the inconvenience is temporary.

A fetus will take up more time than it will take to be pulled up off the rope, but while you might suffer from some bodily changes, it's a temporary inconvenience and nothing like having your shoulders dislocated.

I would go even farther than this though. The hypothetical person clutching your ankles didn't get there because you did something. The fetus is something the woman (absent rape---which might push us back to the organ donor analogy) was complicit in causing the fetus' dependent position. That changes things. Failing to provide this temporary loan is more like child neglect.

However, that still does not answer the question of when the fetus becomes an entity deserving of the consideration we give another person. I'm really sure conception isn't the moment. Nor is a heartbeat. But having had two, I'll tell you babies behave very differently from each other once they begin to move. They have personalities. That's the point at which I begin to think of them as people--when they have enough brain to have a personality.

There is no wrong or right, do what you feel is right to you, and forget about the assholes who label it good or bad.

I have three children and have been pregnant to the point of movement 4 times. Does that make me a better expert than you? No. We are not experts. We are not doctors or scientists.


This is a generic version of my opinion on late term abortion. It's made up from parts of comments from other threads. If beating the dead fetus is going to be a thing I'm just going to post this in every abortion thread. If I'm going to sound like a broken record I might as well just literally repeat the exact same thing every time.

If I must give an opinion, I don't think a fetus' right to live should ever trump a woman's right to ownership and control over her own body. That being said, if a fetus is viable and there are no medical issues causing a threat to the woman's life, then that fetus has a right to live. Doesn't mean it has a right to live inside her body but it does have a right to live.
Please, don't put a huge amount of thought into it. I will say again for what seems like the millionth time (not with you but you know just over all), I do not understand why people get so caught up on late term abortion. Its such a small percentage of abortions. It could so easily be eliminated without making it illegal.


Ps. Feel free to browse the already existing abortion threads there's a lot of good stuff in them.

(June 18, 2014 at 1:29 am)psychoslice Wrote: There is no wrong or right, do what you feel is right to you, and forget about the assholes who label it good or bad.

+ accept any and all consequences of your actions, interpersonal or otherwise.

(June 18, 2014 at 3:17 am)Losty Wrote: I have three children and have been pregnant to the point of movement 4 times. Does that make me a better expert than you? No. We are not experts. We are not doctors or scientists.


This is a generic version of my opinion on late term abortion. It's made up from parts of comments from other threads. If beating the dead fetus is going to be a thing I'm just going to post this in every abortion thread. If I'm going to sound like a broken record I might as well just literally repeat the exact same thing every time.

If I must give an opinion, I don't think a fetus' right to live should ever trump a woman's right to ownership and control over her own body

To much of "the abortion debate" is decided by emotional appeals based on the physical similarity of a fetus to an infant.

"Future personhood" does not exist. Too often I hear, often from teenage mothers, that if their (coincidentally teenage mother) had chosen not to have them, they would not exist.

Which is technically correct, but it assumed the person having the thought existed prior to their own viable conception to the same extent that they're able to make such an observation.

It's a romantic, highly emotional idea, but it's also a thought error. If a zygote or fetus is aborted, by natural or artificial processes, there is no "I." There's nothing there to develop a sense of self. The selfhood of a fetus only exists because adults can imagine their conception and being carried to term. It hasn't happened yet, that "self" would never have been.

Your average "pro lifer" has consumed 2.5 chicken embryos before making an argument about the sacrosanct nature of human life, gobbled them down without a second thought, and got on with their day.

But then again, I'm a biased non-breeder.

(June 17, 2014 at 4:18 pm)Arthur123 Wrote: Hello, I am new to these forums and am interested in engaging in fruitful and intellectual stimulating conversations! Today, I am interested in the topic of abortion. I believe it to be morally wrong for non-religious reasons. Simply put, a fetus is a human being from the moment of conception since it belongs to the species homo-sapiens and is genetically complete in its information. I look forward to any responses!

Kindest Regards,

Under your logic, wouldn't male masturbation be immoral as well? Gotta save all those millions of potential sperms.

Also, shouldn't women be required to have every egg they produce? otherwise it's murder...

We shouldn't have this conversation until such time as not one single Christian has an abortion. I don't think that will give your argument any more validity, but I can hardly be bothered with your theocratic dreams if your ideas aren't powerful enough to influence the behavior of your own tribe.

You also can't demonstrate how abortion is bad for society. This is simply unsubstantiated opinion similar to the Christian exclamation that homosexual marriage destroys the institution of marriage and therefore Western civilization. The faux outrage routine is wearing quite thin (Hint: this is where you insert the 'hate the sin not the sinner' bullshit).

(June 18, 2014 at 12:17 am)Jenny A Wrote:

(June 17, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It feels wrong to me, it feels awfully wrong.

Late term I agree with you. More about that next post.

I can understand why some take moral issue with late term abortion, but even a fetus in its latest stage should not trump the host's right to get it out of their body.