(May 10, 2010 at 5:08 am)Scented Nectar Wrote: I can only attack the common root of it, the rulebook that clearly says you will be tortured forever for not thinking thoughts about how wonderful your god is.

Please show me that part

(May 10, 2010 at 5:08 am)Scented Nectar Wrote: Control your thoughts or be tortured forever.

Please show me this part

(May 10, 2010 at 5:08 am)Scented Nectar Wrote: Believe in him all you want, but would your all loving god really torture people forever just because they were not able to think praises about him without faking it?

Would you really get wet if you didn't use an umbrella? Yes.
Is doing bad stuff detrimental to yourself? Yes
Is God counter natural? No

(May 10, 2010 at 2:31 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(May 10, 2010 at 5:08 am)Scented Nectar Wrote: I can only attack the common root of it, the rulebook that clearly says you will be tortured forever for not thinking thoughts about how wonderful your god is.

Please show me that part

(May 10, 2010 at 5:08 am)Scented Nectar Wrote: Control your thoughts or be tortured forever.

Please show me this part

(May 10, 2010 at 5:08 am)Scented Nectar Wrote: Believe in him all you want, but would your all loving god really torture people forever just because they were not able to think praises about him without faking it?

Would you really get wet if you didn't use an umbrella? Yes.
Is doing bad stuff detrimental to yourself? Yes
Is God counter natural? No

One of the 10 Commandments is : "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." There is nothing in there about ACTION. It is purely about controlling your thoughts.

(May 10, 2010 at 8:59 am)Scented Nectar Wrote:

Watson Wrote:Then there is no point in arguing with you, SN, because you are refusing to take a look at our Christian interpretation of the Christian Bible.

You have literally just stated that you willfully choose not to look into a metaphorical interpretation of any kind of the Bible. This is not logical. Do you not look for metaphors in any other book when you read them? Do you take it lierally when, say, the villain of a book advocates some terrible crime as meaning that the author of that book also advocates the crime? Certainly that's a terrible way to read a book.

Why would I waste time trying to counter all the many re-interpretations? I only care about that on an individual basis, and even then only sometimes. For wider than just one person purposes, I'm going right to the source, the bible, which very clearly does not say 'this one is a metaphor, and that one is real'.

It does say that the Bible is a metaphor...in a metaphorical way. You must read into it to actually see and understand the metaphor. I have told you, the Bible is written in such a way as to allude to a metaphor. That's how you recognize metaphors, you know. Again, when you read a book, do you discern every single character's views to be that of the author? If so, you must have a very negative view of some authors...

Say a book is about a species of lizards that take over the planet, but the underlying theme is a metaphor for communism. Do you simply read the book as being about a species of lizards that take over the planet, or do you read deeper, the way you are supposed to with books, and find the underlying communism metaphor?

Quote:

Quote:I have told you to re-observe the way the Bible is written- it lacks the details of an ordinary, literal-meaning book.

Well, it is rather bad as far as artistic literary aesthetics, but that's not my point. Followers will not be saying 'this one must be a metaphor, since after all, look how non-ordinary the writing is...' You may be different, but Christians in general are expected to believe the stuff written in their bible.

And I do believe in the stuff written in the Bible- not as literal stories, but as lessons meant to be read and learned from. I believe in the lessons themselves, because reading deeper, they are awfully important life lessons, most of them. Some followers, the smart ones, will be saying this. You are trying to argue with a fundamentalists perspective of the Bible, when that is not what I am giving you at all.

Quote:

Quote:It is written specifically in the way of a metaphor, and is clearly meant to be interpreted as such. Now, siimply because some morons interpret it some ways which seem very literal and/or foolish, does not mean those morons' interpretations are correct. There are many right-minded Christians/theists, as I said, who are appalled at notions like the Fundamentalist God interpretation and all of its meanings.

Then, please show me these specifics which show it to be metaphorical. Also, unless these vague 'specifics' indicate that the whole thing, including God, is just a metaphor, then I will also need to see where it says which parts are metaphors.

Again, it says they are metaphors by the self-evident nature of metaphors. You do not need to be told the book about lizards taking over the world is a metaphor for communism- it simply is a metaphor for communism.

You claim that if the entire Bible is metaphorical, then that must mean God is metaphorical, too. Not so. The Bible is a series of stories which are metaphors for God and His lessons and His nature. You seem to think Christianity, Christian beliefs, and the Christian God all must come from the Bible. Again, not so.

My faith is very heavily based on my interpretation and observation of the real world. My interpretation of the Bible then, too, is based on what I have learned from the real world. I also base my knowledge of God on experiences and observations made from the real world- at least, my subjective experience of it[the real world].

Quote:

Quote:But that God is clearly not real, or we'd be looking at an awfully traumatizing world, wouldn't we?

Yeah, that's kind of my point. Setting aside though whether he's real, do you think highly of his morals? Do you worship him due to being truly infatuated and in love with him, or because you are ordered to?

I am indeed truly in love with God. You seem to think that means I am speaking about a literal Biblical interpretation of God, and I state a third time: not so. To understand my beliefs and my faith, you must first understand God. Something Atheists are simply incapable of doing.

Quote:

Quote:You mention that the Bible is the 'inspired word of God' in your post, and to some degree I have come to find that phrase an obnoxious one. It has continually misleadmany a Christian and atheist for some time now. When you look at that, you are assuming that it means the Bible is literally God's word, written down by people who heard it of Him. Wen I look at the term 'inspired word of God', I believe that it means the Bible is a book written by human men, inspired by God and God's 'word' as they understood it.

I'll stop mocking its so called inspiration when xtians stop claiming it IS magically inspired. If you don't believe it's inspired by some deity, and that mere humans wrote it, then why is it given divine status among xtians? If it is not inspired, why do you believe the claims of magic inside?

I believe it is inspired by God; I don't believe it is written by God. I will try to rephrase this: the way a movie can be 'inspired by true events', so to is the Bible inspired by God. It is a book written about God by men. They may not portray everything accurately, they may not protray everything honestly; but what they are attempting to portray is still something they believe in and have encountered- somethig they have been inspired by.

I hope that makes more sense.

Quote:

Quote:The term 'Word' here does not mean a literal word of mouth. Once again, you must read into it, and be smart enough to apply your own life-learnings to it to understand the meaning of the 'Word.'

Yeah, yeah, nothing's literal, sure, sure. Except when conveniently fitting in with what you want to believe anyways. I guess I've heard it before. 'That one doesn't count, it's a metaphor, and that one has a different context because of the year it was then, and that one is real - if you question it you will go to hell.....' Until all of you claiming to be christians can agree on what is metaphorical, and can show why this is the case, I must assume that the authours of the bible intended it to be believed the way it is written.

And once more; any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is not to be applied to real life; life is to be applied to the Bible, and then and only the is the Bible supposed to be re-applied to life. Because then and only then will the Bible begin to make sense. Any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is a collection of allegorical and metaphorical stories meant to embody God and spread His teachings in ways that we humans can understand. It is a book about God; not of God, at least not exactly.

Watson Wrote:It does say that the Bible is a metaphor...in a metaphorical way.

Oh stop, you're killing me!!!! I have no response to this.

Quote:You must read into it to actually see and understand the metaphor. I have told you, the Bible is written in such a way as to allude to a metaphor. That's how you recognize metaphors, you know. Again, when you read a book, do you discern every single character's views to be that of the author? If so, you must have a very negative view of some authors...

If the book is presented as nonfiction, then yes, I figure that what is stated as fact is also part of the authour's view on the matter. Especially when the nonfictional book directly tells people to do horrible crimes without any 'just kidding' disclaimers.

Quote:Say a book is about a species of lizards that take over the planet, but the underlying theme is a metaphor for communism. Do you simply read the book as being about a species of lizards that take over the planet, or do you read deeper, the way you are supposed to with books, and find the underlying communism metaphor?

If the book is trying to factually state that lizards are indeed trying to take over the planet, then I really have no really to suspect it's really the communists who are causing problems this time. It's those lizards I'll be suspicious of.

Quote:And I do believe in the stuff written in the Bible- not as literal stories, but as lessons meant to be read and learned from. I believe in the lessons themselves, because reading deeper, they are awfully important life lessons, most of them. Some followers, the smart ones, will be saying this. You are trying to argue with a fundamentalists perspective of the Bible, when that is not what I am giving you at all.

I have to take the bible rulebook as the default. If you feel that the fundie xtians are the closest to following that rulebook/claimbook, it has nothing to do with my decision to stick with the official thing as being the most correct interpretation available to what was originally meant at the start of this religion of yours (despite of course, all its various authours and retranslations). The fact that you have somehow gotten some personal growth from this story collection is also just incidental or accidental or something. The book and the religion based on it are being touted as the truth right from within the book itself.

Quote:Again, it says they are metaphors by the self-evident nature of metaphors. You do not need to be told the book about lizards taking over the world is a metaphor for communism- it simply is a metaphor for communism.

I actually WOULD need to be told that, especially if the book is being presented as nonfiction. The next time one of those wacky conspiracy nuts talks about the queen of England being a secret alien lizard person, I will now know, but only thanks to you telling me, that she is a secret alien lizard COMMIE person. I was fooled. I thought she was a card carrying monarchist!

Quote:You claim that if the entire Bible is metaphorical, then that must mean God is metaphorical, too. Not so. The Bible is a series of stories which are metaphors for God and His lessons and His nature.

How did you come to that conclusion? Where does it state that the stories are metaphors but the magical invisible god is really real?

Quote:You seem to think Christianity, Christian beliefs, and the Christian God all must come from the Bible. Again, not so.

No. The original roots to the stories have been shown to be older than the old testament, so therefore some elements predate not only xtianity, but also judaism and the old testament. The elements specific to the branch of the abrahamic religions called christianity though, such as some guy named Jesus really being a god, do all come from the bible. It's good though that you seem to be going outside of the bibles for finding your way in life, since the bible is a very cruel and immoral book in my opinion.

Quote:My faith is very heavily based on my interpretation and observation of the real world. My interpretation of the Bible then, too, is based on what I have learned from the real world. I also base my knowledge of God on experiences and observations made from the real world- at least, my subjective experience of it[the real world].

To each their own, but rather than faith in things that don't even have any indications they might exist, much less evidence, I prefer to base my belief on what actually IS, things that are REAL.

Quote:I am indeed truly in love with God.

Wow. To the point of worship? Stalkable, obsessed worship? What other than that or maybe Stockholm's syndrome could make you even LIKE someone with the sociopathic morals of the xtian god? Yikes!!!!

Quote:You seem to think that means I am speaking about a literal Biblical interpretation of God, and I state a third time: not so. To understand my beliefs and my faith, you must first understand God. Something Atheists are simply incapable of doing.

If you don't believe in biblegod, then I'll duck out of this conversation, since your personal opinion of whatever your god is supposed to be, is totally unknowable to me. I thought you were some sort of christian.

Quote:I believe it is inspired by God; I don't believe it is written by God. I will try to rephrase this: the way a movie can be 'inspired by true events', so to is the Bible inspired by God. It is a book written about God by men. They may not portray everything accurately, they may not protray everything honestly; but what they are attempting to portray is still something they believe in and have encountered- somethig they have been inspired by.

A movie inspired by true events usually doesn't add magical elements and give horrible orders to commit crimes, unless of course the real life character was magical and immoral, but whatever...

Quote:I hope that makes more sense.

Not really. It clearly displays the nonsense of it all. Leave the cult, christians. The hell threat is not real, and I think that fear of it is what keeps you from accepting reality, 'just in case it's real' or something.

Quote:And once more; any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is not to be applied to real life; life is to be applied to the Bible, and then and only the is the Bible supposed to be re-applied to life. Because then and only then will the Bible begin to make sense. Any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is a collection of allegorical and metaphorical stories meant to embody God and spread His teachings in ways that we humans can understand. It is a book about God; not of God, at least not exactly.

Oh no, not the 'well, they're not real christians like I am' excuse. Surely not that one. I give up.

---

fr0d0 Wrote:Please show me that part

Quote:Please show me this part

Nah, too much work, and anyways, I think you know full well it's all there.

Quote:Would you really get wet if you didn't use an umbrella? Yes.

If the 'rain'like threat of hell were real, I would indeed use an umbrella. It would have holes though, as I would be unable to do the thought requirements.

Quote:Is doing bad stuff detrimental to yourself? Yes

Sometimes, but sometimes it's only detrimental to others. Doesn't matter though, since I don't think disobeying the many silly demands like worship are detrimental. Do you?

Quote:Is God counter natural? No

Belief/searching in explanations is quite natural, but the actual existance of your god is not. There is absolutely nothing in nature indicating the existance of any gods at all.

(May 10, 2010 at 2:44 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: One of the 10 Commandments is : "You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." There is nothing in there about ACTION. It is purely about controlling your thoughts.

I bet you think the laws of the land are mind control too right?

Thing is, as a Christian I consider myself on a level with those laws.

The 10 commandments were given to a people who needed rules to live by after emerging from slavery to the Egyptians. We are not 'under' the rules but liberated 'by' them.

You have to be illogical to hold your point of view.

---

(May 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:Please show me that part

Quote:Please show me this part

Nah, too much work, and anyways, I think you know full well it's all there.

No, I know it isn't there. Hence the request.

(May 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:

Quote:Would you really get wet if you didn't use an umbrella? Yes.

If the 'rain'like threat of hell were real, I would indeed use an umbrella. It would have holes though, as I would be unable to do the thought requirements.

See the bible says it doesn't matter if your umbrella has holes. you're still forgiven. Pretty nice huh?

(May 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:

Quote:Is doing bad stuff detrimental to yourself? Yes

Sometimes, but sometimes it's only detrimental to others. Doesn't matter though, since I don't think disobeying the many silly demands like worship are detrimental. Do you?

I'd say it's usually detrimental to others, but then that's changing the subject : you. It's not so much a demand, and a natural response to give credit where it's due. If a person was all take and no give, I guess you'd consider them poorly. Same applies here... should you be considered favourably or unfavourably?

(May 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:

Quote:Is God counter natural? No

Belief/searching in explanations is quite natural, but the actual existance of your god is not. There is absolutely nothing in nature indicating the existance of any gods at all.

And this has relevance how?

"Actual existence" is a question of empirical knowledge. Only an idiot would require empirical knowledge of a non temporal entity. Is that you?

(May 10, 2010 at 6:42 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The 10 commandments were given to a people who needed rules to live by after emerging from slavery to the Egyptians.

Why wouldn't God have given them perfected rules then? Why give them defective ones? I'm really beginning to doubt this god's skills you know. Why didn't he do it right the first time? And please don't say it was in context for the time. Injustice and cruelty are never ok just because of what year it happens to be. That's insane.

Quote:We are not 'under' the rules but liberated 'by' them.

No. Rules are a restriction of freedom. When it's a good and just rule, it restricts only the freedom to harm others like in murder or theft. When it's a bad rule, like your god's rule against thinking nice thoughts about other gods, that also is a restriction of freedom, but an injust restriction. so, just or not, it's still a restriction of a freedom. How on earth does following your god's rules liberate? Are you referring to the freedom from being penalized should you not have followed the rules?

Quote:

Quote:Nah, too much work, and anyways, I think you know full well it's all there.

No, I know it isn't there. Hence the request.

Nah, still too much work to go find quotes and chapter references. I'm content with you pretending that the stuff in the bible isn't there and that I'm making it up.

Quote:See the bible says it doesn't matter if your umbrella has holes. you're still forgiven. Pretty nice huh?

No, it's not nice. I did nothing wrong. What is there to forgive? Not only is that not nice, but it's fucking unpleasant. Some god gets all jealous that I partied in my thoughts with my brain fairies, threatens me with eternal torture, and then says he'll forgive me? What the fuck kind of creep would do that? You forgot to mention of course, that in order to get that oh so nice forgiveness, the victim must do some major apologizing/asskissing/agreement-to-start-worshipping, etc. If your god was going to end up forgiving everyone because he's not really such a mean guy as to torture people forever, why would there even be the hell you believe exists? Is hell a metaphor meant to keep us humans in line since we are too stupid to understand common sense instead?

Quote:

(May 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: I don't think disobeying the many silly demands like worship are detrimental. Do you?

I'd say it's usually detrimental to others, but then that's changing the subject : you. It's not so much a demand, and a natural response to give credit where it's due. If a person was all take and no give, I guess you'd consider them poorly. Same applies here... should you be considered favourably or unfavourably?

Please prove how me not worshipping your god is detrimental to others around me. As for giving credit, why? If your god proved to me that he made the universe and is instilling his cruel and unnecessary rules for me to live under, why should I let him know I give him credit for it, is he worried that I will claim it as my own? This is ridiculous. Remember also, that the xtian god does not just want acknowlegement of his feats, he also wants praise for them. Praise. About a cruel and nonsensical reward/punishment system. Come on, really! I'm not good at self delusion, but if I thought hell were real, I'd be scared enough to give it a good try. You bet I would think nice thoughts about him. Maybe I'd even try to masturbate about him! Nah, he's pretty ugly in every pic I've seen. I take that part back!

Quote:

Quote:

(May 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: Is God counter natural? No

Belief/searching in explanations is quite natural, but the actual existance of your god is not. There is absolutely nothing in nature indicating the existance of any gods at all.

And this has relevance how?

In that you say God is natural. Since your god is not found in nature at all, well, you know...

Quote:"Actual existence" is a question of empirical knowledge. Only an idiot would require empirical knowledge of a non temporal entity. Is that you?

I must be, that is if being an idiot means I think you are completely saying the above as an excuse for having zero zip nadda zilch squat evidence, or even any indicators that any gods exist, much less your particular variation of one who needs one earth species to telepathically reassure him that he is the cat's pajamas.

(May 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:

Watson Wrote:It does say that the Bible is a metaphor...in a metaphorical way.

Oh stop, you're killing me!!!! I have no response to this.

You don't, do you?

Quote:

Quote:You must read into it to actually see and understand the metaphor. I have told you, the Bible is written in such a way as to allude to a metaphor. That's how you recognize metaphors, you know. Again, when you read a book, do you discern every single character's views to be that of the author? If so, you must have a very negative view of some authors...

If the book is presented as nonfiction, then yes, I figure that what is stated as fact is also part of the authour's view on the matter. Especially when the nonfictional book directly tells people to do horrible crimes without any 'just kidding' disclaimers.

The 'nonfiction' element is the metaphor. The lessons that the Bible is preaching are real life lessons which can be applied to anyone's lifestyle; the stories themselves are simply metaphors for how God works, and don't necessarily have to be true, real life events.

Quote:

Quote:Say a book is about a species of lizards that take over the planet, but the underlying theme is a metaphor for communism. Do you simply read the book as being about a species of lizards that take over the planet, or do you read deeper, the way you are supposed to with books, and find the underlying communism metaphor?

If the book is trying to factually state that lizards are indeed trying to take over the planet, then I really have no really to suspect it's really the communists who are causing problems this time. It's those lizards I'll be suspicious of.

The book is not trying to factually state that lizards are trying to take over the world; it is, however, factually stating that communists are a threat and a problem, through the use of a metaphor that readers can relate to.

The Bible is the same way. A story promoting a factual lifestyle and it's application to life, through use of metaphorical stories that the reader can relate to.

Quote:

Quote:And I do believe in the stuff written in the Bible- not as literal stories, but as lessons meant to be read and learned from. I believe in the lessons themselves, because reading deeper, they are awfully important life lessons, most of them. Some followers, the smart ones, will be saying this. You are trying to argue with a fundamentalists perspective of the Bible, when that is not what I am giving you at all.

I have to take the bible rulebook as the default. If you feel that the fundie xtians are the closest to following that rulebook/claimbook, it has nothing to do with my decision to stick with the official thing as being the most correct interpretation available to what was originally meant at the start of this religion of yours (despite of course, all its various authours and retranslations). The fact that you have somehow gotten some personal growth from this story collection is also just incidental or accidental or something. The book and the religion based on it are being touted as the truth right from within the book itself.

And from what I have experienced, the book and the religion based on it are the truth. Not the stories themselves, of course, but the lessons the Bible imparts have proven to be quite helpful, truthful, and beneficial to me. This is not incidental or accidental, and you cannot simply write it off as such.

Quote:

Quote:Again, it says they are metaphors by the self-evident nature of metaphors. You do not need to be told the book about lizards taking over the world is a metaphor for communism- it simply is a metaphor for communism.

I actually WOULD need to be told that, especially if the book is being presented as nonfiction. The next time one of those wacky conspiracy nuts talks about the queen of England being a secret alien lizard person, I will now know, but only thanks to you telling me, that she is a secret alien lizard COMMIE person. I was fooled. I thought she was a card carrying monarchist!

Again, the story within the book itself about lizards is not being presented as nonfiction; the metaphor for communists, since commies do in fact exist, is.

Quote:

Quote:You claim that if the entire Bible is metaphorical, then that must mean God is metaphorical, too. Not so. The Bible is a series of stories which are metaphors for God and His lessons and His nature.

How did you come to that conclusion? Where does it state that the stories are metaphors but the magical invisible god is really real?

I have observed God in real life and the nature in which He works. When I read the Bible, I find it to be pretty accurate in it's metaphorical depiction of God and His lessons. I came to the conclusion that He Himself is not metaphorical on my own; and I came to the conclusion that the Bible is a series of metaphors for Him because, well, obviously it was not written by God. It was written by men, about God.

Quote:

Quote:You seem to think Christianity, Christian beliefs, and the Christian God all must come from the Bible. Again, not so.

No. The original roots to the stories have been shown to be older than the old testament, so therefore some elements predate not only xtianity, but also judaism and the old testament. The elements specific to the branch of the abrahamic religions called christianity though, such as some guy named Jesus really being a god, do all come from the bible. It's good though that you seem to be going outside of the bibles for finding your way in life, since the bible is a very cruel and immoral book in my opinion.

I do not find the book to be cruel and immoral at all; there are certain parts within that do, indeed, reflect the time period in which it was written, but those parts are innaccurate according to my understanding of God.

Yes, certain stories and certain parts of the Bible predate all of the religions which are an off-shoot of Judaism and the Old testament, etc., etc. I see this as further proof of my point. It illustrates that, even before the Bible was written in it's original form, people were passing down stories and allegoies about how God and His nature worked and existed in our world.

Quote:

Quote:My faith is very heavily based on my interpretation and observation of the real world. My interpretation of the Bible then, too, is based on what I have learned from the real world. I also base my knowledge of God on experiences and observations made from the real world- at least, my subjective experience of it[the real world].

To each their own, but rather than faith in things that don't even have any indications they might exist, much less evidence, I prefer to base my belief on what actually IS, things that are REAL.

And to me, there are many, many indications that God exists. God gives you exactly what you want to make of life; you perceive a world without God, you get a world that appears to have no God. You perceive a world that does have a God, and you get a world which reveals itself to have proof of God everywhere.

Quote:

Quote:I am indeed truly in love with God.

Wow. To the point of worship? Stalkable, obsessed worship?

Worship, yes, because I know of God's power and His nature. Obviously not in a creepy, stalker kind of way.

Quote:What other than that or maybe Stockholm's syndrome could make you even LIKE someone with the sociopathic morals of the xtian god? Yikes!!!!

Again, as I stated before; the morals alluded to in the Bible are not sociopathic or evil, if you read deeper into the stories and find the true meaning below the surface of the story. To do this, I must apply my real-life experiences to the Bible, and my observations of the world around me.

Quote:

Quote:You seem to think that means I am speaking about a literal Biblical interpretation of God, and I state a third time: not so. To understand my beliefs and my faith, you must first understand God. Something Atheists are simply incapable of doing.

If you don't believe in biblegod, then I'll duck out of this conversation, since your personal opinion of whatever your god is supposed to be, is totally unknowable to me. I thought you were some sort of christian.

I am a Christian. I believe in the teachings of Christianity.

Quote:

Quote:I believe it is inspired by God; I don't believe it is written by God. I will try to rephrase this: the way a movie can be 'inspired by true events', so to is the Bible inspired by God. It is a book written about God by men. They may not portray everything accurately, they may not protray everything honestly; but what they are attempting to portray is still something they believe in and have encountered- somethig they have been inspired by.

A movie inspired by true events usually doesn't add magical elements and give horrible orders to commit crimes, unless of course the real life character was magical and immoral, but whatever...

If the movie inspired by true events is trying to relate a real life character who is very nearly incomprehensible in uncertain terms, then it is easier to convey the story through allegory and metaphor than it is through telling the real tale. No one will understand the real tale except those who were involved and those who have had similar experiences.

Quote:

Quote:I hope that makes more sense.

Not really. It clearly displays the nonsense of it all. Leave the cult, christians. The hell threat is not real, and I think that fear of it is what keeps you from accepting reality, 'just in case it's real' or something.

That 'or something' at the end damns your argument. You can't figure out why anyone would be Christian, so you just apply some preconceived notion of what you presume to be human nature to the situation, and leave it at that.

I have found Hell to be very real, by the way. I have lived it, and it is quite terrible. But again, you still have no understanding of what Hell or Heaven truly are, so it is quite impossible to discuss them with you until you do.

Quote:

Quote:And once more; any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is not to be applied to real life; life is to be applied to the Bible, and then and only the is the Bible supposed to be re-applied to life. Because then and only then will the Bible begin to make sense. Any right-minded Christian or theist will tell you that the Bible is a collection of allegorical and metaphorical stories meant to embody God and spread His teachings in ways that we humans can understand. It is a book about God; not of God, at least not exactly.

Oh no, not the 'well, they're not real christians like I am' excuse. Surely not that one. I give up.

Well, the definition of being a Christian is to be Christ-like. That is why it is calld Christianity. So, yes, anyone not acting Christ-like is not a real Christian in the simplest sense of the word.

(May 11, 2010 at 10:01 am)Watson Wrote:

(May 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:

Watson Wrote:It does say that the Bible is a metaphor...in a metaphorical way.

Oh stop, you're killing me!!!! I have no response to this.

You don't, do you?

No. It's an endless made up semantic circle game. You can keep saying that the metaphor is a metaphor forever.

Quote:The 'nonfiction' element is the metaphor. The lessons that the Bible is preaching are real life lessons which can be applied to anyone's lifestyle; the stories themselves are simply metaphors for how God works, and don't necessarily have to be true, real life events.

No, the metaphor would be the fictional representation of the nonfictional element. If the lessons of nonharmful behaviour being deserving of death at the hands of followers, and other equally horrible lessons are real, then the bible should be considered hate literature. God is being presented as a nonfictional element rather than a metaphor if it explains how he works. So these horrible lessons can't be metaphors for yet something else.

Quote:The book is not trying to factually state that lizards are trying to take over the world; it is, however, factually stating that communists are a threat and a problem, through the use of a metaphor that readers can relate to.

If readers can relate to it, then there would be no argument, no debate, no questioning even, as to exactly what the bible is saying humans should do, and what is real vs metaphor and if the latter what's it mean, and the many contradictions, etc. If mere mortal sinful humans have fucked up the holy word of god so bad that the bible is now unclear, why on earth are you following it at all? Find your own answers, not ones from a messed up, inaccurate, often-made-up, uneducated source with a hidden political/financial theocratically-founded agenda like the Abrahamic religions.

Quote:The Bible is the same way. A story promoting a factual lifestyle and it's application to life, through use of metaphorical stories that the reader can relate to.

The world has unfortunately seen, and continues to see the result of humans applying the 'facts' of the bible to real life. Not a good track record, I'm afraid.

Quote:And from what I have experienced, the book and the religion based on it are the truth. Not the stories themselves, of course, but the lessons the Bible imparts have proven to be quite helpful, truthful, and beneficial to me. This is not incidental or accidental, and you cannot simply write it off as such.

What lessons? Really, what? Specifically. And exclusive to the bible please, eg, almost every religion and nonreligious philosophy has some variation of the don't do to others empathy rule. I'm very interested to know the lessons only the bible can provide. Also, I hope you don't just say something like, well it's different for everyone. Uh uh, we are not talking about a self help book here, we are talking about a set of laws and commands, to be enforced on everyone, believers/nonbelievers alike to affect us our whole lives. And for you believers, you think it will also affect you after you die and forever.

Quote:Again, the story within the book itself about lizards is not being presented as nonfiction; the metaphor for communists, since commies do in fact exist, is.

Ok, then when referring to the bible, who are the lizards and who are the commies? Are sin and hellfire the lizards or the commies? Are evil and satan the real threat or just metafuckingphors for something else? If the bible had an important message, it wouldn't play around with metaphors. And in fact it didn't. The writers meant for it to be taken quite seriously and factually. You only want it to be metaphorical because you are trying to make it fit into your own personal life and morals and stuff.

Quote:I have observed God in real life and the nature in which He works.

No you haven't. You have observed real life and chalked it up to one version (xtian) of one specific supernatural cause (invisible creator deities) out of the zillions of supernatural causes that the human brain can make up and wonder about.

Quote:When I read the Bible, I find it to be pretty accurate in it's metaphorical depiction of God and His lessons.

If it's a metaphor, how do you know it's accurate? And what particular metaphorical depiction(s) of God are you referring to? An example here would be nice.

Quote:I came to the conclusion that He Himself is not metaphorical on my own; and I came to the conclusion that the Bible is a series of metaphors for Him because, well, obviously it was not written by God. It was written by men, about God.

So, how did they know anything about God? It's even worse if the metaphors were made up by mere humans, since the very message is whatever the fuck they were thinking at the time. Can't be taken as a holy guide for all.

Quote:I do not find the book to be cruel and immoral at all; there are certain parts within that do, indeed, reflect the time period in which it was written, but those parts are innaccurate according to my understanding of God.

Your understanding doesn't count. You can say that to excuse anything immoral or magical in that book. Let's go by what it actually says. If you agree with biblegod's morals and laws to follow on earth, then you are a threat to my life and well being and basic freedom. It's a hideous book. The accidental time period one is born into, is no justification for that group to deserve suffering. Anyways, even your Jesus said something about not abolishing these old laws, but to do the opposite and 'fulfill' them, make them happen, enforce them. Even gave shit to someone for not killing their disobedient children somewhere in there.

Quote:Yes, certain stories and certain parts of the Bible predate all of the religions which are an off-shoot of Judaism and the Old testament, etc., etc. I see this as further proof of my point. It illustrates that, even before the Bible was written in it's original form, people were passing down stories and allegoies about how God and His nature worked and existed in our world.

No, it goes further back than the monotheistic Abrahamic god. There is a theory that the Adam and Eve story represented the judeochristian takeover of the previous gnostic and other religions, Eve representing goddess worship common in many of them, and the forbidden tree of life representing the political control over possible earlier shamanic use of cannabis (the jews restricted the oil-anointing and smoke-inhaling of 'cannabosm' to priests and kings they approved of, and the xtians later stopping it altogether), etc. It's plausible as a theory for how the religious misogyny of the last few thousand years or so came about. But even that all goes back further. Xtianity doesn't have it's own starting point. Holidays and many concepts were taken and adapted from various other pre-existing religions. And who knows what speculative deity concepts they came from in earlier times.

Quote:And to me, there are many, many indications that God exists. God gives you exactly what you want to make of life; you perceive a world without God, you get a world that appears to have no God. You perceive a world that does have a God, and you get a world which reveals itself to have proof of God everywhere.

There is no need to add a god-filter to the world. No need at all. And what are some of the many, many indications to you that God exists? Seriously, what? And don't be vague.

Quote:Worship, yes, because I know of God's power and His nature. Obviously not in a creepy, stalker kind of way.

Even mere mortal rock stars lose respect for fans who worship and adore ad nauseum. Why would your god even like you doing that to him. It is creepy in a stalker sort of way.

Quote:Again, as I stated before; the morals alluded to in the Bible are not sociopathic or evil, if you read deeper into the stories and find the true meaning below the surface of the story. To do this, I must apply my real-life experiences to the Bible, and my observations of the world around me.

What are the good morals in the bible? And where in the bible does it say there is a hidden true meaning and that you will find it by applying your personal experiences/observations to it?

Quote:I am a Christian. I believe in the teachings of Christianity.

Then you can't not believe that the christian bible is true. You are cherry picking the bible, and adding hidden meanings that you like, and all kinds of excuses to deny that fact that you are not really a christian. You are obviously a deist, but you don't believe the bible to be true or accurate, even though you like its morals. You claim the supernatural/illogical parts are metaphors, etc so you are not a believer in it, are you? Is Jesus's resurrection a metaphor?

Quote:If the movie inspired by true events is trying to relate a real life character who is very nearly incomprehensible in uncertain terms, then it is easier to convey the story through allegory and metaphor than it is through telling the real tale. No one will understand the real tale except those who were involved and those who have had similar experiences.

Who cares about who understands it or not. Real life suffering results (and for believers, eternity as well). That book should at least come with a disclaimer, do not do this in real life. We don't really mean it for real when we say to kill or rule over these or those people.

Quote:

Quote:Not really. It clearly displays the nonsense of it all. Leave the cult, christians. The hell threat is not real, and I think that fear of it is what keeps you from accepting reality, 'just in case it's real' or something.

That 'or something' at the end damns your argument. You can't figure out why anyone would be Christian, so you just apply some preconceived notion of what you presume to be human nature to the situation, and leave it at that.

No it doesn't. That was to include other additional possible reasons that people might believe in hell, such as those with self-worthiness issues who feel they deserve punishment for some reason and figure there must be one waiting for them, etc.

Quote:I have found Hell to be very real, by the way. I have lived it, and it is quite terrible. But again, you still have no understanding of what Hell or Heaven truly are, so it is quite impossible to discuss them with you until you do.

You have not lived the christian hell. You are not even dead yet. You don't get to call real life bad times, which everyone gets no matter what one's belief in deities, the christian hell. Hell in the xtian bible happens after death, and whether you are sent there is determined by what God thinks of what you did and thought while you were alive on Earth. No making shit up, or you are not really a christian.

Quote:Well, the definition of being a Christian is to be Christ-like. That is why it is calld Christianity. So, yes, anyone not acting Christ-like is not a real Christian in the simplest sense of the word.

The only rulebook on how to be christ-like is the christian bible. So, lather rinse repeat.