(July 2, 2014 at 12:41 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(July 2, 2014 at 12:24 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Fatanfaitless you made a really good point, doctors that aren't fine with abortion shouldn't have determined specializations. That solves the problem.

-by insisting that doctors ought to waive their 1st amendment right if they want to be in a particular field. A right that you can waive isn't much of a right at all. Can I voluntarily waive some other right I have for increased economic opportunity? Can I sell myself, for example?

Yes. It should be insisted that they waive their first amendent rights if they want to specialize in a particular field. This is not the government taking away a right, it is an individual entering a voluntary position that has standards that they have taken an oath to adhere to. A doctor cannot deny a blood transfusion to a patient even if it grinds against their religion, because they took an oath in order to become a doctor that places the wellbeing of their patients above everything else. Nobody is forcing these people to become OB/GYN's, they are entering the field and spending years learning about how to administer these treatments to improve the wellbeing of their patients (women). They don't get to pick and choose which parts of their oath they want to stick to, or what parts of medical treatments they don't like absed on their religion.

And yes, I'm sorry to tell you that a right is something that you can waive. That's the point of a right. Nobody else can take it from you, but you can choose not to exercise it. People do it all the time, for example a right to an attorney (self representation), miranda rights, right to privacy (they can be as explicit about their personal lives as they want, its just the government can't force them to). Again, nobody is forcing these people to become OB/GYN's against their will. They take an oath and have standards of their profession. Period.

(July 2, 2014 at 12:44 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Where I live you can sell yourself, it's called prostitution.
Can you sell yourself as human being? No, if you referring to slaving and losing rights.

Whoa there, you're being very unkind to your laws. Your laws allow a poerson to sell a service that they have the equipoment to peform - in themselves. It doesn;t allow the buyer of the service to claim proprietary rights over the -provider- of the service. So no, you can't "sell yourself". That's just a conditioning phrase used (by moral religious busybodies) to fuck with your head and get you to assign a negative connotation to prostitution.

So, why can't you waive that right...but you can (and apparently should) waive some other right for the exact same reasons (money - a job)?

(July 2, 2014 at 12:24 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Sometimes I just use the wrong words. Sorry if I offended you.

I'm not offended, you were contradicting yourself and I was pointing that out.

Quote:Let me rephrase it - A reasonable pro life will agree that there are exceptions.

The reasonable exception to abortion is the choice of the pregnant woman and that's the one exception so-called pro-lifers (read:anti-choicers) refuse to grant women. Pro-lifers who grant your three exceptions are more reasonable than the Todd Akins and Richard Mourdocks of the world, but just barely.

It's the woman's choice. That's the only reasonable exception. No woman should be forced to carry any pregnancy to term if she doesn't consent to it.

If a woman is raped and she chooses to carry the child to term and give birth, that's her choice.

If a woman is raped and she chooses to abort, that's her choice.

If a woman finds out that the fetus she is carrying has a genetic anomaly that will mean the baby will only live for a short time after birth or will live with a severe mental or physical disability and she chooses to carry it to term and give birth, that's her choice.

If a woman finds out that the fetus she is carrying has a genetic anomaly that will mean the baby will only live for a short time after birth or will live with a severe mental or physical disability and she chooses to abort, that's her choice.

If a woman needs an organ transplant and is being prepped for surgery and finds out that she's 8-weeks pregnant, it's her choice to move forward with the transplant and risk endangering the pregnancy or to cancel the transplant and carry to term and birth the baby hoping that another kidney or liver or heart comes back around for her. It's her choice. It's always her choice.

Quote:I simply used the words wrongly, I didn't literally mean there aren't some nutjobs that think women shouldn't abort even if they got raped.

In the future, qualify your position better by using words like "Many" or "most" or "some" instead of absolutes like "all" or "every."

blackout Wrote:Let me rephrase it - A reasonable pro life will agree that there are exceptions.

A reasonable person can see that the only reason people want to make exceptions for rape cases but not allow all women to choose, is because they believe women deserve to "suffer the consequences" of having sex.

(July 2, 2014 at 2:28 pm)Losty Wrote:

blackout Wrote:Let me rephrase it - A reasonable pro life will agree that there are exceptions.

A reasonable person can see that the only reason people want to make exceptions for rape cases but not allow all women to choose, is because they believe women deserve to "suffer the consequences" of having sex.

Some people don't care about other people's rights.

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(July 2, 2014 at 12:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(July 2, 2014 at 12:44 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Where I live you can sell yourself, it's called prostitution.
Can you sell yourself as human being? No, if you referring to slaving and losing rights.

Whoa there, you're being very unkind to your laws. Your laws allow a poerson to sell a service that they have the equipoment to peform - in themselves. It doesn;t allow the buyer of the service to claim proprietary rights over the -provider- of the service. So no, you can't "sell yourself". That's just a conditioning phrase used (by moral religious busybodies) to fuck with your head and get you to assign a negative connotation to prostitution.

So, why can't you waive that right...but you can (and apparently should) waive some other right for the exact same reasons (money - a job)?

I stated you cannot sell yourself. That would equal human trafficking or slavery, it's a crime punishable by international law and all national laws if we are talking about a civilized State. I could actually argue than even though the law allows you to perform a service, illegal pimps claim proprietary rights over prostitutes (this happens not in theory, but in practice)

What did you mean by your last question? Enlighten me.

A funny thing about rights. It's not supposed to matter what anyone thinks about them. They are rights they should be inalienable. If you can take them away because most people think you should, then they wouldn't be rights.
What if your country did a vote on whether or not you could get married. What if there was 100% voter turn out and every single person except you voted that you should not be allowed to marry. Then you should still be allowed to marry because that is your right. It doesn't matter how other people feel about it.

(July 2, 2014 at 2:22 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(July 2, 2014 at 12:24 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Sometimes I just use the wrong words. Sorry if I offended you.

I'm not offended, you were contradicting yourself and I was pointing that out.

Quote:Let me rephrase it - A reasonable pro life will agree that there are exceptions.

The reasonable exception to abortion is the choice of the pregnant woman and that's the one exception so-called pro-lifers (read:anti-choicers) refuse to grant women. Pro-lifers who grant your three exceptions are more reasonable than the Todd Akins and Richard Mourdocks of the world, but just barely.

It's the woman's choice. That's the only reasonable exception. No woman should be forced to carry any pregnancy to term if she doesn't consent to it.

If a woman is raped and she chooses to carry the child to term and give birth, that's her choice.

If a woman is raped and she chooses to abort, that's her choice.

If a woman finds out that the fetus she is carrying has a genetic anomaly that will mean the baby will only live for a short time after birth or will live with a severe mental or physical disability and she chooses to carry it to term and give birth, that's her choice.

If a woman finds out that the fetus she is carrying has a genetic anomaly that will mean the baby will only live for a short time after birth or will live with a severe mental or physical disability and she chooses to abort, that's her choice.

If a woman needs an organ transplant and is being prepped for surgery and finds out that she's 8-weeks pregnant, it's her choice to move forward with the transplant and risk endangering the pregnancy or to cancel the transplant and carry to term and birth the baby hoping that another kidney or liver or heart comes back around for her. It's her choice. It's always her choice.

Quote:I simply used the words wrongly, I didn't literally mean there aren't some nutjobs that think women shouldn't abort even if they got raped.

In the future, qualify your position better by using words like "Many" or "most" or "some" instead of absolutes like "all" or "every."

Yes it's her choice. But pro lifers will say that abortion is not reasonable. You could say having a choice is reasonable because it makes everyone happy and no woman is forced to have an abortion, but pro lifers will accuse you of promoting 'murder', the debate will go on with no purpose.

Rights might only be inalienable if someone is there to make sure no one, uh... alienates them. Or something. The idea that 'might makes right' seems to be true in the practical sense.

Sure, np. We both agree that we cannot waive our rights and sell ourselves into slavery (presumably for some monetary boon). -Even if we wanted to- correct?

If we can't waive that right, then how can we -even if we wanted to(and why should we - if we could) waive our religious rights just for the monetary boon of practicing medicine in a certain field?

(I want to work in an er but not give blood transfusions - example)

(don't read too much into this..I'm not expressing any personal views..it's just a bit of reverse sophistry)

(July 2, 2014 at 7:41 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Why is this nonsense still being argued?

Because I haven't found a legal way to execute abortions retroactively like Major League Baseball's disabled list.