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About other gods-question for theists
#51
RE: About other gods-question for theists
Quote:From a spiritual perspective, God has elected me, regenerated me, and given me belief.


OR... you have deluded yourself into thinking that you have a special invisible friend in the sky.

I'll go with the latter.


And, yes. He means Antipas.
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#52
RE: About other gods-question for theists
Isn't "Antipas" a subset of our favourite culinary god, the might FSM?
I'm getting peckish now just thinking about it.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Reply
#53
RE: About other gods-question for theists
(July 1, 2014 at 1:36 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: If you're going to bring up the consistency argument as one of the reasons you 'chose' Christianity over Mormonism or Islam, I'm going to have to bring up Judaism again. There are explciit contradictions between the Old and New Testament inside your supposedly internally consistent choice of faith. The Torah at least doesn't have all that extra messiah crap thrown on. If consistency is the reason you're stating for choosing your faith over others, why not 'choose' Judaism?
I've already answered this question in post #35. Do you have questions about what the text is teaching?
(July 1, 2014 at 2:38 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Well the Bible is external to you. No doubt about that. And it certainly says god exists. But given the fact that it also says the world was created in six days and that there is essentially no historical corroboration for anything in it except bits of Kings and Chronicles, I wouldn't count it as evidence. Is the Book of the Dead evidence of Ra?
You're changing the conversation here. I'm clarifying that I didn't "look inside" to determine the truth, but rather was acted upon by an outside force. Are you denying that the Bible is something external to myself?

(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: For example, please explain when Jesus was actually born since Matthew claims that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great but Luke claims that Jesus was born during the census of Quirinius (6-7 CE) which is ten years after Herod died in 4 BCE. Was he born twice?
Has been addressed.
(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The genealogies for Jesus in Mathew and Luke are so different that they hardly contain a single name in common. Further both are through Joseph which makes no sense at all if Jesus were born of a virgin. --apologists suggest that one of those genealogies was Mary's but that's not what either gospel says.

Alleged genealogy discrepancy
(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote:



"...from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off..."


(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Islam says the Biblical god is the true god. But it specifically says Jesus is merely a prophet.

The Biblical God is Jesus. To call Jesus merely a prophet is to deny Jesus is God, and therefore to deny the Biblical God.
(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: It simply says the Bible describes the real god but got some things wrong about him.
Which again denies the Biblical God.

The Biblical God cannot lie.
The Bible is the word(s) of God.
If the Biblical God cannot lie, then the words of the Biblical God are true.

To claim that some of the words of the Bible are not true, that the Bible gets some things wrong about God, is to deny the Biblical God.
(July 1, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's not a logical inconsistency. Nowhere does the quran "deny god" - in fact - that would be the worst possible thing a muslim could do...precisely because the quran is all about the opposite, the affirmation of god. What you're talking about is a dispute between ideological claims. The "biblical god" says nothing. If you wanted to actually consider this you would have taken the time to express it accurately so that your conclusions might have value. Would you like me to correct that statement or can you handle it?
Addressed above. If there's something I'm missing in your counter argument please 'correct that statement' that I have made.

If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?



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#54
RE: About other gods-question for theists
You didn't address anything above, you simply offered more of your own competing ideology. Try harder.

1-The Biblical God cannot lie.
The Bible is the word(s) of God.
2-If the Biblical God cannot lie, then the words of the Biblical God are true.

Let me help you. 1 and 2 squeeze the middle as though it belonged or could modify the others. It can't. All three can be true (and are - to muslims no less-) but it won't lead to the conclusion you want. If 1......even if there were no bible..then 2 could be true. Can you take it from there? Do you see what you've done?

(this leaving out the obvious possibility that 1 and the middle could be true, while 2 is false - god might simply be mistaken - not lying - of course)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#55
RE: About other gods-question for theists
(June 23, 2014 at 8:30 pm)Zidneya Wrote:
(June 23, 2014 at 8:47 am)Confused Ape Wrote: As far as I can see it's dated 2004. Can you post a link to the article you read?

I have it in a word document. I remembered I read it all in a library and then only copied the points that I wanted. BUT I SURE AS HELL REMEMBER THAT THOSE WEREN'T THE CONCLUSIONS THAT I READ.
Someone gave me incorrect data!!
[Image: bsod-onion-head-emoticon.gif]
[Image: robot-onion-head-emoticon.gif]The Jose Vasconcelos Library do not held responsible if the information or data contained in it's archives it's either incorrect, flawed or past time. We recommend our visitors to do the proper investigation before utilizing our data in any form of communicative work.


[Image: depressed1-onion-head-emoticon.gif]
For more information go to the second page of this thread I'm out of here.
Oh and Confused Ape you were right by the way.
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#56
RE: About other gods-question for theists
(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(July 1, 2014 at 2:38 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Well the Bible is external to you. No doubt about that. And it certainly says god exists. But given the fact that it also says the world was created in six days and that there is essentially no historical corroboration for anything in it except bits of Kings and Chronicles, I wouldn't count it as evidence. Is the Book of the Dead evidence of Ra?
You're changing the conversation here. I'm clarifying that I didn't "look inside" to determine the truth, but rather was acted upon by an outside force. Are you denying that the Bible is something external to myself?

Nope just that it's evidence of god. You have no external evidence unless the Bible is evidence. And frankly it isn't. It's just a book of myth. Reread my response which you so kindly quoted.

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: For example, please explain when Jesus was actually born since Matthew claims that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great but Luke claims that Jesus was born during the census of Quirinius (6-7 CE) which is ten years after Herod died in 4 BCE. Was he born twice?
Has been addressed.

Really? Where? Note my response to Lek below.

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The genealogies for Jesus in Mathew and Luke are so different that they hardly contain a single name in common. Further both are through Joseph which makes no sense at all if Jesus were born of a virgin. --apologists suggest that one of those genealogies was Mary's but that's not what either gospel says.

/AllegedDiscrepancies.aspx?article=932]Alleged genealogy discrepancy[/url]

Does not address why it's Joseph's line, rather than Mary's given the virgin birth. Also really lame. Really, really lame. The Bible does not use the female line anywhere else for a man's genealogy. Why start here with Joseph's?

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

"...from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off..."
[Hide]
Nehemiah 2:1 states the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem occurred in the month of Nissan in the twentieth year of the reign of the Persian king, Artaxerxes. Encyclopedia Britannica says Artaxerxes Longimanus took the Persian throne in July of 465 BC. So his twentieth year began in July of 445 BC. The month of Nissan following that would have been in March of 444 BC, which was before the twenty-first anniversary of Artaxerxes' reign. The seven weeks, or 49 years, ran from Artaxerxes; decree to the year Jerusalem's wall and moat were finished in the period of Ezra and Nehemiah. From that time another 62 weeks went by until the Messiah was "cut off," a term meaning "put to death."


That's from Old Testament to Old Testament, not Old to New.

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: In the book "ON the Weeks and This Prophecy," in fragment 16 Julius Africanus shows how to make the calculation. He says that the "70 weeks" prophecy of Daniel 9 started when Artaxerxes gave the decree in his twentieth year. Years later, Sir Robert Anderson recreated the conversion process for our modern calendar as follows: There are 69 X 7 years until the Messiah's death (483 years)http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/weeks.htm

The prophesy doesn't tell us when to start counting.

Quote:Many people have proposed different years for different decrees. And I won't pretend to have the "only correct answer," because I don't know if I have that or not. In any event, here are four decrees that are often discussed in relation to Daniel 9:24-26:

1. The decree from Cyrus in 539 BC. (see Ezra 1:1-4)

2. The decree from Darius in 519 BC. (see Ezra 5:3-7)

3. The decree from Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457 BC. (see Ezra 7:11-16)

4. The decree from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 444 BC. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8)
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/weeks.htm

In other words, clear as mud.

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: We convert from the Jewish/prophetic calendar to the Gregorian/Roman calendar this way: We take the 483 years times 360 days per year (the sacred Jewish calendar) and that comes to 173,880. On the modern calender that comes out to 476 years and 21 days. March 14, 444 BC plus 476 years comes out to March 14, AD 31. We add one year because there was no "0" year, then add the 21 days. April 6, AD 32.
For more info and view points you can go to:
carm.org
Apologetics Press



Yep, as long as you take one of four possible start dates, rework the calendar, and assume Jesus is the anointed one it works. Hardly a clear prophesy.

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:
(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Islam says the Biblical god is the true god. But it specifically says Jesus is merely a prophet.

The Biblical God is Jesus. To call Jesus merely a prophet is to deny Jesus is God, and therefore to deny the Biblical God.
(June 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm)Jenny A Wrote: It simply says the Bible describes the real god but got some things wrong about him.
Which again denies the Biblical God.

The Biblical God cannot lie.
The Bible is the word(s) of God.
If the Biblical God cannot lie, then the words of the Biblical God are true.

That would be the unwarranted assumption. We are arguing about whether the Bible is true, not assuming it.

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: To claim that some of the words of the Bible are not true, that the Bible gets some things wrong about God, is to deny the Biblical God.
Uh huh. And whether the there is a god, and if so if the Bible is evidence of him is the question not the answer.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#57
RE: About other gods-question for theists
(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The Biblical God cannot lie.
Really?!?
"Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
According to your nasty little collection of evil fairy tales, buy-bull gawd lied. Neither Adam nor Eve died the day they ate the fruit. Spin as you wish, but a lie is a lie is a lie.

Let me save you some trouble:
"Their death was spiritual."
Bullshit. Buy-bull gawd didn't say "you will be dead to me" or "it will be as though you died." He said they'd die, that day.

"But, they did die!"
Yeah. Allegedly 900+ years later. Not exactly "in the day."

But, but, er.... Oh! I know. One day for GOD is like a thousand years! Ha! Gotcha!!!
Um, no. We're talking about a part of a book where the days were clearly defined as 24-hour periods. "And the evening and the morning were the XXX day."

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The Bible is the word(s) of God.
The buy-bull is a collection of oral traditions and, at very best, second-hand accounts (more likely fourth-, fifth-, eighth- or even twenty-seventh-hand), written down by man. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing inerrant about it. In fact it is riddled with mistakes and contradictions.

Also, despite the fact that the first century CE is the best documented period in antiquity there is not one single contemporary account of jeebus. Not one

(July 3, 2014 at 10:43 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: If the Biblical God cannot lie, then the words of the Biblical God are true.
The authors of the buy-bull made gawd a liar in the first book. These words of men are no more true than any in the "Harry Potter" series. You could, with as much intellectual honesty as you're using now, bend your knee and pray to our savior Harry Potter whose coming was prophesied by Sybil Trelawny and who's actions fulfilled said prophesy. And, her's was much more specific than any buy-bull prophesy.

----

On another, but related note, it always amuses me when christers put limits on their omniscient, omnipotent invisible sky-fairy daddy figure. "God cannot lie." Why the fuck not?!? It's supposed to be all powerful. Why can't it do what so many humans do every day, most of the time without qualm?!? Hell, he didn't even put lying completely off the table. "Thou salt not bear false-witness against your neighbor" is a far cry for "Thou shalt not lie." So, Sky-Superman has limits? In some ways humans are more powerful?

Wow! That's one awesome gawd you pray to. Dodgy
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
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#58
RE: About other gods-question for theists
With any luck, we'll be conversing with a newly minted muslim here in a few pages.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#59
RE: About other gods-question for theists
Leave the poor guy alone.
OK, there's a couple of discrepancies in the bible. So what!
God doesn't need no man made stupid bible to prove he exists!
He is the Almighty!
He doesn't need to prove to anyone he exists!
And he has done a damn good job of it!

No, No, That's not what I meant you evil athiest bastards!
You know what I meant!
I meant you mere mortals can never prove it, so there!
God is "my" god! I'm not sharing him with anyone!
When I pass, I'm going to heaven and eating fairy floss all day!
You souless unbelievers are going to rot in hell for an eternity!
So there! Confused Fall
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#60
RE: About other gods-question for theists
(July 4, 2014 at 4:23 am)ignoramus Wrote: OK, there's a couple of discrepancies in the bible. So what!

Atheists always come up with this multitude of discrepancies and then you can research them and find refutations of these "discrepancies" from bible scholars. Google is just a click away. Check it out for yourself.
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