(July 8, 2014 at 7:29 pm)Lek Wrote: I'm not blind to the persecution that christians did to others. It was wrong. That doesn't negate the persecution that christians have experienced.

So nice to meet a fellow advocate for gay marriage and the separation of church and state!

Having said that, I do think that your idea of persecution is incredibly mild, some might even say a mislabeling of simple disagreement, when compared even to what your brothers in Christ are facing overseas. There is real, definite persecution of christians occurring in the world at times; what happens in the US isn't even close.

(July 9, 2014 at 5:55 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 8, 2014 at 7:29 pm)Lek Wrote: I'm not blind to the persecution that christians did to others. It was wrong. That doesn't negate the persecution that christians have experienced.

So nice to meet a fellow advocate for gay marriage and the separation of church and state!

Having said that, I do think that your idea of persecution is incredibly mild, some might even say a mislabeling of simple disagreement, when compared even to what your brothers in Christ are facing overseas. There is real, definite persecution of christians occurring in the world at times; what happens in the US isn't even close.

Not only is it not even close, I think it's rather insulting to the Christians that are being persecuted and having their rights removed, to say that what happens in the USA is the same or similar.

"We can no longer use public schools to push our religion, we're being persecuted, just like those Christians in some Middle Eastern countries who are being beaten and imprisoned and oppressed."

Just seems very creepy and victim-fetishy to me.

(July 9, 2014 at 5:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: So nice to meet a fellow advocate for gay marriage and the separation of church and state!

Having said that, I do think that your idea of persecution is incredibly mild, some might even say a mislabeling of simple disagreement, when compared even to what your brothers in Christ are facing overseas. There is real, definite persecution of christians occurring in the world at times; what happens in the US isn't even close.

I am for the separation of church and state and I'm for gay civil unions with the same rights and privileges under the law, but not gay marriage. I don't want to change the definition of an institution that is so important to so many.

To FatAndFaithless also:
Persecution comes in different degrees. It can be mild or severe. My saying that christians in the US are persecuted does nothing to diminish what christians are going through in other lands.

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(July 9, 2014 at 4:28 am)Rhythm Wrote: -largely at the hands of other christians. You folks have been crying wolf for so damned long I don't know why anyone listens. Hell, the only times you seem to have valid grounds for complaints we find out that your co-conspirators are the ones holding the bloody dagger - not that you seemed to be decrying the deeds of the same the day before - when they were actively skullfucking your shared enemies.

Actually I see it coming more from atheists and people of other religions.

(July 9, 2014 at 10:37 pm)Lek Wrote: I am for the separation of church and state and I'm for gay civil unions with the same rights and privileges under the law, but not gay marriage. I don't want to change the definition of an institution that is so important to so many.

The definition of marriage in the US originally didn't encompass interracial marriages: it's already been changed in very recent history, so I wouldn't be dealing with the argument from tradition fallacy there. It doesn't serve your point at all.

Quote:Persecution comes in different degrees. It can be mild or severe. My saying that christians in the US are persecuted does nothing to diminish what christians are going through in other lands.

I think the issue is that we wouldn't call upholding the separation of church and state to be persecution at all.

From the responses I evoke from Christian acquaintances on Facebook, you'd think they equate persecution with anyone who calls them out on their childish bullshit.

(July 9, 2014 at 11:54 pm)Esquilax Wrote: The definition of marriage in the US originally didn't encompass interracial marriages: it's already been changed in very recent history, so I wouldn't be dealing with the argument from tradition fallacy there. It doesn't serve your point at all.

You're wrong on that. Some states outlawed interracial marriage, and it wasn't right to do so, by the way. That's not the same as saying that marriage is now a union of two persons of any sex, therefore, changing the definition of marriage.

(July 9, 2014 at 11:54 pm)Esquilax Wrote: I think the issue is that we wouldn't call upholding the separation of church and state to be persecution at all.

I agree with you on that. I wholeheartedly support separation of church and state. Not allowing freedom to follow your faith would be persecution.

(July 10, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Lek Wrote: I agree with you on that. I wholeheartedly support separation of church and state. Not allowing freedom to follow your faith would be persecution.

Wholeheartedly? Really? Many muslims believe 'following their faith' means that they have to convert the whole world to islam, by any means including violence. Are they being persecuted because violence is illegal?

(July 10, 2014 at 12:23 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote: Wholeheartedly? Really? Many muslims believe 'following their faith' means that they have to convert the whole world to islam, by any means including violence. Are they being persecuted because violence is illegal?

Let's use some common sense here.

(July 10, 2014 at 12:23 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote:

(July 10, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Lek Wrote: I agree with you on that. I wholeheartedly support separation of church and state. Not allowing freedom to follow your faith would be persecution.

Wholeheartedly? Really? Many muslims believe 'following their faith' means that they have to convert the whole world to islam, by any means including violence. Are they being persecuted because violence is illegal?

As a former Muslim I support this statement. It id indeed true and it is called dawah in Islam