Hello all,

Yes, the state of Israel has some problems. I think the best idea and solution to the problem in controlling Israel's behavior is to treat it like a state within the United States.

For example, when the American national government expresses stipulations to individual states within the union to comply with directives to receive financial assistance, Israel should be treated in the same manner.

For instance, do not attack Palestinians or some other nation without justification or U.S. will remove financial aid. The reason why is because the U.S. has cost associated with military actions. What if the actions of Israel creates more problems which will, in the long run, hamper the U.S. economy.

No doubt, that Israel's enemies are a problem to the overall objective in spreading pluralistic democracies within the region. The current Islamic movements has very serious problems in accepting science and social reforms. However, there are also Jewish movements which threaten the formation of a pluralistic democracy within Israel itself.

The Islamic movements have a problem in forming a consensus and identity around science, maintaining and promoting a pluralistic society (Of course, only accepting "science" when it is used to harm others but not used in the modernization of human society. / Yes, I am aware of the scientific contributions of the Al-Andalus state which controlled the Iberian peninsula in Europe but this was the past and there are NO modern Islamic voices within these Islamic movements).

Therefore, America's allies in the region are not the standing nations in the region but segments of the people within both Israel and Muslim dominated nations who are willing to embrace a modernly scientific and pluralistic society and to peacefully co-exist with each other.

I propose that all members of Congress and the American government to evaluate my proposal for the support of ONLY those who embrace the above idea. We should withhold aid to nations, including Israel, which act unilaterally against others or who act without justification or prevent economic empowerment of any part of a nation or region.

Israel has failed to promote an alternative which is mentioned above and may have retreated in the promotion of such a state and society. There is still a chance for Israel to embrace such a concept. Gaza and other parts of Palestine need to be modernized and Palestinians who are anti-corruption and Pro-modernization need to be supported. I find it strange that Gaza is not supported, financially, by the state of Egypt ??? Why is there a missing trade route? I see, Israel is blockading them ???

America has a problem with Christian zealots as well who BLINDLY support Israel and think a "supernatural" agenda is guiding events in the region. Look zealots, if you think Israel is guided by a supernatural entity then why support the state of Israel BLINDLY ??? The support of Israel is evidently secular and nothing is supernaturally attached to it unless it is interpreted as such.

NOTE: I have ignored an exhaustive religious explanation or evidence from religious texts because we should evaluate the situation as if these people are babies just born who are not conscious of religious identities but act as human beings. I am aware how Muslim's think of the situation and I think some Jews are not as extreme. Also, not all Christians are zealots but are rational. We just need to find and support rational individuals from both sides and they need to govern the societies.

(July 11, 2014 at 2:28 pm)bberryhill0 Wrote: Does that include the VA and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Pensions? Interest incurred on the Federal debt? Those aren't usually included as part of the military budget. Thanks for the info. I find data to be more useful in these discussions than speculation. Does that data go back further?

I would also take government spending out of the GDP to get a more accurate picture because that money was removed from the productive economy by taxes. That cuts the real GDP down by a quarter.

I can't say about the VA; I assume not since the VA is not part of the DoD. Yes on Iraq and Afghanistan up to the end of the graph.

Interest on the debt is it's own cost outlay caused by historic deficit spending. Addressing the fact that we spend more in any particular year than tax receipts allow is what is important for debt and deficit discussions.

I would be careful about unpacking government spending from GDP as I think you insert uneeded complexity into the rough analysis. Government GDP will drag down total GDP (sometimes a quarter as you suggest, sometimes more, sometimes less) as in the chart below for 2013; however, I can pretty much guarantee that if we could find the same data during the recession, government spending was contributing significantly to GDP.

Also, how much private sector business contributing to GDP is actually driven by government spending. You may be able to unpack first tier exchanges, but what about upstream vendors supporting product (think manufacturers selling material to GE to build military aircraft engines).

(July 11, 2014 at 6:18 pm)Bad Writer Wrote:

(July 11, 2014 at 6:00 pm)A Theist Wrote: ...and the Islamic Arab nations that surround them are? Those are the ones causing the problems over there.

Did you skip where I said "both nations are bad for one's health"? ....

Oh, did you slip that in there some place in your "Israel is to blame for the problems over there" post?

The Muslim nations over there hate everybody. They can't even tolerate each other over the differences of belief in their own religion. Muslims don't get along with anybody, least of all, Israel....and a lot of the far-left fringers here display that same intolerance and hatred for the Jews. It's the hateful Islamic hordes over there who are the problem.

(July 11, 2014 at 9:39 pm)A Theist Wrote:

(July 11, 2014 at 6:18 pm)Bad Writer Wrote: Did you skip where I said "both nations are bad for one's health"? ....

Oh, did you slip that in there some place in your "Israel is to blame for the problems over there" post?

The Muslim nations over there hate everybody. They can't even tolerate each other over the differences of belief in their own religion. Muslims don't get along with anybody, least of all, Israel....and a lot of the far-left fringers here display that same intolerance and hatred for the Jews. It's the hateful Islamic hordes over there who are the problem.

Hey, pal, if you're going to quote me, then quote me right, or if you're going to paraphrase, then at least have the integrity to mention that you're reiterating what it is that you think I was saying.

I never said "Israel is to blame for the problems over there", a fabricated quote that would lead one to think that I claim all problems ever over there are Israel's fault. This is demonstrably untrue, most recently shown by the latest rocket attacks from Palestine. (Although Israel's retaliation certainly violates their law of proportionality in war where their own artillery killed upwards of 100 Palestinians, quite a few that were innocent bystanders.)

What I actually said was "The state of Israel is not exactly a pluralistic society, and that has only caused problems for them over there." This means their policies of non-acceptance have facilitated the conflict. A few posts later I said, "the Israelis chose their right of conquest when moving in over there, and it stirred up the hornet's nest that is the Middle East." While they may not have drawn first blood, the UN's idiocy and the Israelis' Zionist zealotry following the events of WWII certainly got the ball rolling on the eventual conflicts that would occur even to this day.

You're right that Muslims are very anti-Israel and will do anything to see the end of those people. There are two simple solutions that I see right off the bat:

1) Open the doors of their city to any that wish to live there.

But they would never go for that because Zionism. Well, fuck. And then there's the next option:

2) Get the hell out of dodge.

I mean, I think I could get behind U.S. government funding to relocate the Israeli people. Besides, it would suck to have so many decent Jewish scholars, artists, leaders, and scientists bite the dust once India decides it's had enough of the Middle East and mops the floor with some Islamic blood. But, again, Zionism gets in the way of all that.

I guess there's always the less-favored third option:

3) Give fuck all about their sorry-asses, both them and the Palestinians, and let them handle their own religious-state-driven issues.

(July 11, 2014 at 10:06 pm)Bad Writer Wrote:

(July 11, 2014 at 9:39 pm)A Theist Wrote: Oh, did you slip that in there some place in your "Israel is to blame for the problems over there" post?

The Muslim nations over there hate everybody. They can't even tolerate each other over the differences of belief in their own religion. Muslims don't get along with anybody, least of all, Israel....and a lot of the far-left fringers here display that same intolerance and hatred for the Jews. It's the hateful Islamic hordes over there who are the problem.

Hey, pal, if you're going to quote me, then quote me right, or if you're going to paraphrase, then at least have the integrity to mention that you're reiterating what it is that you think I was saying.

I never said "Israel is to blame for the problems over there", a fabricated quote that would lead one to think that I claim all problems ever over there are Israel's fault. This is demonstrably untrue, most recently shown by the latest rocket attacks from Palestine. (Although Israel's retaliation certainly violates their law of proportionality in war where their own artillery killed upwards of 100 Palestinians, quite a few that were innocent bystanders.)

What I actually said was "The state of Israel is not exactly a pluralistic society, and that has only caused problems for them over there." This means their policies of non-acceptance have facilitated the conflict. A few posts later I said, "the Israelis chose their right of conquest when moving in over there, and it stirred up the hornet's nest that is the Middle East." While they may not have drawn first blood, the UN's idiocy and the Israelis' Zionist zealotry following the events of WWII certainly got the ball rolling on the eventual conflicts that would occur even to this day.

You're right that Muslims are very anti-Israel and will do anything to see the end of those people. There are two simple solutions that I see right off the bat:

1) Open the doors of their city to any that wish to live there.

But they would never go for that because Zionism. Well, fuck. And then there's the next option:

2) Get the hell out of dodge.

I mean, I think I could get behind U.S. government funding to relocate the Israeli people. Besides, it would suck to have so many decent Jewish scholars, artists, leaders, and scientists bite the dust once India decides it's had enough of the Middle East and mops the floor with some Islamic blood. But, again, Zionism gets in the way of all that.

I guess there's always the less-favored third option:

3) Give fuck all about their sorry-asses, both them and the Palestinians, and let them handle their own religious-state-driven issues.

First of all, I'm not your pal. Secondly, I wasn't paraphrasing you. I was expressing the sentiment of your reply. Your responses have proven me correct. You're a hostile anti-Jewish bigot.

If I think that a state is on a downward spiral of their own making and don't feel sympathy for them it makes me anti-them? Really? That's your conclusion?

In that case, how about North Korea? Their isolationism has caused their people nothing but grief, but they have chosen to remain that way. If I don't feel bad about it because they choose not to help themselves, so does that make me a bigoted, anti-Korean as well?

(July 11, 2014 at 11:11 pm)Bad Writer Wrote: If I think that a state is on a downward spiral of their own making and don't feel sympathy for them it makes me anti-them? Really? That's your conclusion?

In that case, how about North Korea? Their isolationism has caused their people nothing but grief, but they have chosen to remain that way. If I don't feel bad about it because they choose not to help themselves, so does that make me a bigoted, anti-Korean as well?

Your responses, and others here too, have shown nothing to the contrary. Most of the replies are largely, and as usual, a condemnation of Israel, contempt, and total shock at "how dare Israel defend itself against rocket fire from the poor little muslim terrorists who are dedicated to killing as many Israelis as they can." Israel has every right to defend itself against attacks. Those islamic Palestinian pieces of shit were dancing and celebrating in the streets when the Twin Towers were attacked and knocked down on 9-11. I don't feel sorry for them at all. They openly embrace Hamas' directive to destroy Israel, and they even volunteer to be human shields for Hamas against Israel's response to being attacked by them. Stop firing rockets into Israel, stop the terrorist attacks against Israel, and Israel will stop its bombing raids against Hamas targets there.

(July 12, 2014 at 10:51 am)A Theist Wrote:

(July 11, 2014 at 11:11 pm)Bad Writer Wrote: If I think that a state is on a downward spiral of their own making and don't feel sympathy for them it makes me anti-them? Really? That's your conclusion?

In that case, how about North Korea? Their isolationism has caused their people nothing but grief, but they have chosen to remain that way. If I don't feel bad about it because they choose not to help themselves, so does that make me a bigoted, anti-Korean as well?

Your responses, and others here too, have shown nothing to the contrary. Most of the replies are largely, and as usual, a condemnation of Israel, contempt, and total shock at "how dare Israel defend itself against rocket fire from the poor little muslim terrorists who are dedicated to killing as many Israelis as they can." Israel has every right to defend itself against attacks. Those islamic Palestinian pieces of shit were dancing and celebrating in the streets when the Twin Towers were attacked and knocked down on 9-11. I don't feel sorry for them at all. They openly embrace Hamas' directive to destroy Israel, and they even volunteer to be human shields for Hamas against Israel's response to being attacked by them. Stop firing rockets into Israel, stop the terrorist attacks against Israel, and Israel will stop its bombing raids against Hamas targets there.

Your unwillingness to answer me honestly and to misappropriate how you think I feel about this is very telling of your narrow view on this entire issue. You think I'm saying "how dare Israel defend itself against rocket fire from the poor little muslim terroriests who are dedicated to killing as many Israelis as they can." If this is what I'm saying, then you're going to need to show it by actually quoting me correctly.

To recap, what I actually said was, "Israel's retaliation certainly violates their law of proportionality in war where their own artillery killed upwards of 100 Palestinians, quite a few that were innocent bystanders." Never was it indicated that I think Israel does not have a right to defend itself. I was instead stating the unfortunate truth of their latest retaliation, but I suppose stating facts that deal with unfortunate outcomes wrought by your buddies out there makes you uncomfortable. The issue is obviously very black and white for you, so it's probably a foreign concept for someone to not be pro-Israel, but not be anti-Israel either. I'm neutral in that I've seen the bullshit from both sides over there, and I would rather they deal with the problems they have each created on their own terms.

I wonder if it would be painful for you to even consider the fact that had Israel established themselves, let's say, somewhere in Europe, following WWII instead of in the Middle East, that their lot in life would be a lot better, that there may actually be no HAMAS trying to kill Israelis every day. What are your thoughts on this?

If the Palestinians weren't bottled up in concentration camps this problem would be much reduced.

To A Theist and other Christian Millennialists:

Why should America give its tax dollars to Israel if Israel is protected by a "supernatural" being ???