Well, I think the title of this post doesn't really explain what this post really is about.

Last night there was a HUGE debate about abortion between 2 atheists, a scientist who has no religious or anti religious views, and about 15 Christians. Go figure, right?

This debate was about abortion, obviously. The Christians views were that as soon as a sperm fertilizes an egg then it creates a life. I can understand that. BUT they did not want to take consciousness in to consideration. Consciousness was like a brand new curse word to them or something. They also used the term "life" and used that as a claim against abortion. So, I went on to explain my views.

My entire view point, in a whole on abortion, is that I am pro-choice. With stipulations but if you want to know, I have no problem telling you. Anyways, being pro-choice meant I had to have some sources and facts to back up what I was saying. Maybe this isn't a fact, I suppose it could be an opinion, but isn't consciousness, life? Or life = consciousness?

Think about it. When someone gets into a bad car wreck or dies then is brought back to life...say they don't "make" it. They're entirely brain dead. If there is no consciousness, their brain is dead then their body is not capable of functioning without the assistance of robots/machines. Correct? So, the majority of people "pull the plug" to end the bodies suffering and pain. So, why is this any different from abortion?

A fetus does not gain consciousness until 23 - 26 weeks of gestation. So, if the fetus does not have a conscious...does this mean it cannot detect its surroundings? Does this not mean that if it were born at that current moment, that it would die?

Anyways, just some thoughts. I would like to see what others feel on this.

Definitions:

Abortion is the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo before viability

con·scious·ness [kon-shuhs-nis] Show IPA
noun
1.
the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.
2.
the thoughts and feelings, collectively, of an individual or of an aggregate of people: the moral consciousness of a nation.
3.
full activity of the mind and senses, as in waking life: to regain consciousness after fainting.
4.
awareness of something for what it is; internal knowledge: consciousness of wrongdoing.
5.
concern, interest, or acute awareness: class consciousness.


life [lahyf] Show IPA
noun, plural lives [lahyvz] Show IPA .
1.
the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.
2.
the sum of the distinguishing phenomena of organisms, especially metabolism, growth, reproduction, and adaptation to environment.
3.
the animate existence or period of animate existence of an individual: to risk one's life; a short life and a merry one.
4.
a corresponding state, existence, or principle of existence conceived of as belonging to the soul: eternal life.
5.
the general or universal condition of human existence: Too bad, but life is like that.

Hello, me again!
You're not going to have much luck talking to religious people about "life" topics.
It hits a nerve in the heart of their belief systems.

The sacred "Soul". Without a soul there is no heaven and hell and the sacred book falls to bits.
When does this ficticious "soul" get injected into a new life? I'll tell you when! Exactly when these fucking creatards think it does! ..not negotiable!...
Morghan, try not to waste too much time arguing with people like this ... You can't win ...Logic and reason doesn't work.
Remember, these people think the world is 6000 years old! (mind you, earth was going through the agricultural revolution then, but don't tell them that)

The topic of abortion brings emotions from all the participants and it's controversial, however arguing it with religious people is a waste of time since they are only against abortion because there is already a soul... Such bullshit. I am pro-choice but I wont' be arguing on this again, there is already a thread, we've been trough this

Oh gawd... not another abortion thread.

Like Ignoramous said: you can't talk abortion with Christians. No amount of logic is going to make them understand where you're coming from.

(July 13, 2014 at 7:50 am)ignoramus Wrote: Hello, me again!
You're not going to have much luck talking to religious people about "life" topics.
It hits a nerve in the heart of their belief systems.

The sacred "Soul". Without a soul there is no heaven and hell and the sacred book falls to bits.
When does this ficticious "soul" get injected into a new life? I'll tell you when! Exactly when these fucking creatards think it does! ..not negotiable!...
Morghan, try not to waste too much time arguing with people like this ... You can't win ...Logic and reason doesn't work.
Remember, these people think the world is 6000 years old! (mind you, earth was going through the agricultural revolution then, but don't tell them that)

Lol, I admire you.
I only join the debates when I am super bored.
Just wanted to see other views.

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(July 13, 2014 at 7:53 am)Blackout Wrote: The topic of abortion brings emotions from all the participants and it's controversial, however arguing it with religious people is a waste of time since they are only against abortion because there is already a soul... Such bullshit. I am pro-choice but I wont' be arguing on this again, there is already a thread, we've been trough this

Ah, I didnt see the other thread.
Also, just to add for everyone, I wasn't asking or begging anyone to post.

I felt it was a topic that could start conversation so I could gain more knowledge and view points from fellow atheists.

Also, the main point of this isn't ALL about abortion. It is merely the idea of if consciousness determines life.

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(July 13, 2014 at 8:51 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Oh gawd... not another abortion thread.

Like Ignoramous said: you can't talk abortion with Christians. No amount of logic is going to make them understand where you're coming from.

This thread isn't solely for abortion. The main topic is about consciousness and life and how they relate.

At least that's what I intended it to be about...

Quote:Ah, I didnt see the other thread.
Also, just to add for everyone, I wasn't asking or begging anyone to post.

I felt it was a topic that could start conversation so I could gain more knowledge and view points from fellow atheists.

Also, the main point of this isn't ALL about abortion. It is merely the idea of if consciousness determines life.

I don't know if consciousness determines life or not. Did you mention something like 20 weeks? Well usually where it's legal to abort you can only do it up to 12 or 14 weeks (where I live it's like this), but if it was a malformation or rape you can wait more time, almost to 20 weeks (some malformations take time to be detected). You guys have fun discussing this, I'm done with discussing abortion

(July 13, 2014 at 8:51 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Oh gawd... not another abortion thread.

Like Ignoramous said: you can't talk abortion with Christians. No amount of logic is going to make them understand where you're coming from.

That's because philosophical issues, whichever side of them you're on, aren't usually logical. All you can really do is state your own stance and move on.

If someone believes that the creation of a new DNA code is important, what can you say to that?
"Nuh uh. Is not."
"Uh huh, is too."
"Is not!"
"Is too too too too too. Lalalala can't hear you!"

At the risk of seeming immodest, I think I've just summarized every abortion thread, ever.

Scripture is clear, insoulation occurs at birth with the first breath (Genesis 2:7). The Christers lost the debate by their HERESY !!

How the fuck can apostates take over a Goddamn religion and NOBODY notices ???

Well most fertilized zygotes don't result in a successful pregnancy. Most either don't implant or miscarry during the first trimester. So the argument for conception goes out the window there.

As to consciousness. This is more difficult. The brain and nervous system might be developed around 26 weeks (I don't know, I'm trusting you on this) I'm not sure if the being is sentient. Is consciousness given or is it learned? With no framework to process the sensations being received is the fetus really experiencing things the way we would?

I don't endorse abortions of fetuses that are viable outside the womb but the idea of sentience and consciousness is an interesting one.

By Genesis 2:7, abortion otta be legal for Christers up to the moment of viable birth. (I'm seeing a VERY interesting 1st Amendment case possibility there)

Can't reality contrive to make that happen for my amusement ??

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Hate to imply somebody could/would/should try this, but a woman, preggers and desiring an abortion after the legal window in her state closes, but prior to birth sues for the right to an abortion on 1st amendment grounds and among other legal citations, notes Genesis 2:7.

How do Bible toting pro-lifers weigh in on a cluster fuck (by their lights) like that ??