(August 18, 2014 at 7:15 am)robvalue Wrote: I think that's the very first time I've heard a religious person say that, and I respect that a lot. Your view of religion and holy books certainly seems very different to the norm, and it seems far better to me.

Michael's perspective is very representative of Christianity in the UK. Enlightenment values and secular organisation of society have left a lasting impact on religious expression.

The real book of god was buried by nazi communists in central park, NYC.

(August 18, 2014 at 11:08 am)Ben Davis Wrote:

(August 18, 2014 at 7:15 am)robvalue Wrote: I think that's the very first time I've heard a religious person say that, and I respect that a lot. Your view of religion and holy books certainly seems very different to the norm, and it seems far better to me.

Michael's perspective is very representative of Christianity in the UK. Enlightenment values and secular organisation of society have left a lasting impact on religious expression.

Hey Ben. Did you have to burst the bubble so soon? There I was, basking in the idea that I was somehow special. And then you come along and blow the gaff by letting everyone know that actually I'm just extraordinarily ordinary in UK Christianity.

(-p

When is it [god], and when is it our own preferences?

I have a few Christian friends. One in particular has an annoying habit of believing that whenever things are going as he wants that god is with him and whenever things are going against him that the devil is responsible. An example would be when he lost his wallet. He said that the 'enemy' was trying to rob his joy, and that satan didn't want him to be able to go on a road-trip, and so his wallet containing his license, credit cards and cash was stolen to prevent him from going. Well, well, well... he found his 'stolen' wallet exactly where HE left it and took the trip, and wouldn't you know it, god was once again 'with' him. Oh yeah, the trip was for a Christian rally concert where the admission for receiving god's goodness and teaching was available at the low, low price of $95 per person for a 4 hour event.
Seems to me like satan wanted him to go after all

Logical consistency (both internal and between the two texts)
Textual Criticism
Historicity
Testimony
Personal experience

More information on your question could be explored here namely post #21 to begin. The question is a bit different but there are some similarities in the content.

As I was considering your question, I was wondering if the question is answerable? In your proposition, 'given two texts, one authentic and one counterfeit', you ask: how do we know the counterfeit from the authentic? To answer this we would need a standard with which to measure the two against. The standard in this proposition would be the word of God, but that is the very item in question. How would you propose determining the standard itself? Let me ask this another way. I hand you two $1 bills, one is authentic and one is counterfeit. Given only those two bills, how would you determine which one is fake?

Your example is representative neither of reality, or of the subject to which you wish to draw an analogy.

Nobady can see the word of god but everyone having imagination power. People draw the images in which god is present only to imagine the god word. Every people having imagination power but no body can use this power in same manner. For example you can pick a general topic in your daily family and share it with your family member or friends they can understand their topic and provide different different option to over come with your situation, that's because they have mind but they used differently. Every people having different opinion for god's.

(August 19, 2014 at 4:53 am)ronwilliams Wrote: Nobady can see the word of god but everyone having imagination power. People draw the images in which god is present only to imagine the god word. Every people having imagination power but no body can use this power in same manner. For example you can pick a general topic in your daily family and share it with your family member or friends they can understand their topic and provide different different option to over come with your situation, that's because they have mind but they used differently. Every people having different opinion for god's.

As I was considering your question, I was wondering if the question is answerable? In your proposition, 'given two texts, one authentic and one counterfeit', you ask: how do we know the counterfeit from the authentic? To answer this we would need a standard with which to measure the two against. The standard in this proposition would be the word of God, but that is the very item in question. How would you propose determining the standard itself?

That is pretty much the thought process I was trying to get at In my opinion the question is not answerable, and that is the point. It's the process you would use that is important, and how that applies to the real situation we have in religion. Take away the assumption that any of them are in fact the word of god for sure, and you are there. We don't have a word of god to compare to, because you have to assume something is the word of god in order to "prove" that it is, by comparing it with itself- which makes no sense.

If the word of god is "self evident", then it should still be so even if you had all memory of what you know about the book removed from your brain first, so even the names wouldn't mean anything to you. Hence my example.

(August 17, 2014 at 1:24 pm)robvalue Wrote: I have a question for the religious. In simple terms, how can you spot the difference between a text that is the word of god, and one that just says it is but was written by men?

To paint a picture and to produce a non-biased answer:

Imagine you have all your current knowledge and experience about any and all holy books wiped from your mind.

Then you are presented with two books. The names aren't important, let's just call them A and B. It has been guaranteed to you somehow that one of these really is the dictated word of god. The other is an elaborate fake, a book written by men to mimic the style of the true book.

Both books contain their accounts of what god is, what its laws are, various stories, and proclaim that they are the one and only true word of god. They both seem about as convincing as each other after a read through.

My question is, how do you decide which one is actually the word of god, and which one is the fake? What is your criteria?

When I was in the church we did it by faith and by the priests telling us so. They discounted most of the OT since it was more radical. If you had hard questions with the NT then it came under the 'mystery of god' and faith took over. If you don't question and just believe then everything is fine.

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(August 18, 2014 at 3:34 pm)ShaMan Wrote: When is it [god], and when is it our own preferences?

I have a few Christian friends. One in particular has an annoying habit of believing that whenever things are going as he wants that god is with him and whenever things are going against him that the devil is responsible. An example would be when he lost his wallet. He said that the 'enemy' was trying to rob his joy, and that satan didn't want him to be able to go on a road-trip, and so his wallet containing his license, credit cards and cash was stolen to prevent him from going. Well, well, well... he found his 'stolen' wallet exactly where HE left it and took the trip, and wouldn't you know it, god was once again 'with' him. Oh yeah, the trip was for a Christian rally concert where the admission for receiving god's goodness and teaching was available at the low, low price of $95 per person for a 4 hour event.
Seems to me like satan wanted him to go after all

That is how it is with some people. Humans are predisposed to creating gods. Throughout history they have made thousands of gods to explain a life that is unexplainable. They also believe that other people may have a more direct communication with the gods. Hence the holy priests became the middleman to god and the gatekeeper to everlasting life.

For a fun read check out how you could buy your way into heaven back in the day...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

see: Late medieval abuses