(September 8, 2014 at 2:13 pm)naimless Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 1:57 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (removing all the other stuff)

Nno, you've still got it wrong. Someone not believing in a deity isn't a claim, it's literally the opposite, it's simply that they don't accept the claims about the deity. There is no claim being made.

If you look at a species such as monkeys objectively and see that the majority of monkeys experience eating bananas and then a minority of monkeys don't experience eating bananas it is an extraordinary claim to say that the majority of monkeys do not experience eating bananas.

Similarly if you look at humans objectively, it is an extraordinary claim to say that the majority of humans don't experience some form of deity.

It does not matter if I subjectively experience bananas or deities, or not. The majority of monkeys and humans experience them, respectively. Therefore a claim to have found god for a human is not that extraordinary, objectively speaking. It is like a monkey claiming to have found a banana.

Whether I think the monkey has actually found a banana, or if the banana exists or not, is not relevant.

That analogy is so clumsy and irrelevant that I don't even know how to approach it.

From behind with a big net.

(September 7, 2014 at 12:43 pm)Vicki Q Wrote: Clearly God could make His presence clear beyond doubt. And have a legion of angels briefed to zap our backsides if we so much as think of taking a pencil home from work. But I'm not sure that's the best thing.

Why not? According to the Bible, god made his presence clear numerous times in the past, everything from speaking directly to people to bringing plagues and destruction against those who challenged him. Later on he takes a human form and walks on water, heals blind and paralyzed people, exorcises demons who seem terrified of him, raises the dead, feeds thousands with a bag's worth of food (and then collects twelve baskets full afterwards!) and so on. He's quite hands-on and unafraid of being seen and heard.

Then... poof! Nothing. Humanity grows in knowledge and understanding and we learn more about our world and our universe and we develop methods of recording things that happen and god isn't anywhere to be found. Now he inhabits our hearts and minds and some metaphysical realm from which he can observe us, stopping occasionally to giggle at those silly humans and their detection devices that he dodges so skillfully. Hey, he gave us a book that is easily misconstrued as the ancient scribbling of ignorant people and which is so open to interpretation that there don't seem to be any two Christians who can agree on what it all means... isn't that enough???

(September 8, 2014 at 2:14 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 2:13 pm)naimless Wrote: If you look at a species such as monkeys objectively and see that the majority of monkeys experience eating bananas and then a minority of monkeys don't experience eating bananas it is an extraordinary claim to say that the majority of monkeys do not experience eating bananas.

Similarly if you look at humans objectively, it is an extraordinary claim to say that the majority of humans don't experience some form of deity.

It does not matter if I subjectively experience bananas or deities, or not. The majority of monkeys and humans experience them, respectively. Therefore a claim to have found god for a human is not that extraordinary, objectively speaking. It is like a monkey claiming to have found a banana.

Whether I think the monkey has actually found a banana, or if the banana exists or not, is not relevant.

Where you're wrong is that the majority of people CLAIM to have experiences with a deity, but that claim should not be taken at face value.

But it isn't an extraordinary claim if the majority of humans claim it...

(September 8, 2014 at 2:13 pm)naimless Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 1:57 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (removing all the other stuff)

Nno, you've still got it wrong. Someone not believing in a deity isn't a claim, it's literally the opposite, it's simply that they don't accept the claims about the deity. There is no claim being made.

If you look at a species such as monkeys objectively and see that the majority of monkeys experience eating bananas and then a minority of monkeys don't experience eating bananas it is an extraordinary claim to say that the majority of monkeys do not experience eating bananas.

Similarly if you look at humans objectively, it is an extraordinary claim to say that the majority of humans don't experience some form of deity.

It does not matter if I subjectively experience bananas or deities, or not. The majority of monkeys and humans experience them, respectively. Therefore a claim to have found god for a human is not that extraordinary, objectively speaking. It is like a monkey claiming to have found a banana.

Whether I think the monkey has actually found a banana, or if the banana exists or not, is not relevant.

The extraordinary part being that no one can prove that deities are real, as opposed to bananas.

(September 8, 2014 at 2:18 pm)naimless Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 2:14 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: Where you're wrong is that the majority of people CLAIM to have experiences with a deity, but that claim should not be taken at face value.

But it isn't an extraordinary claim if the majority of humans claim it...

Nno..again not right. It doesn't matter how many people claim it, it doesn't become less extraordinary. The claims about deities (about how the universe was formed, how it's run, where it's going, where humans came from, how to behave, rewards/punishment, rules, revelations, etc) are all extraordinary claims.

(September 8, 2014 at 2:18 pm)naimless Wrote: But it isn't an extraordinary claim if the majority of humans claim it...

You're missing the point that the extraordinary claim here is that the majority of humans claim it.

(September 8, 2014 at 2:18 pm)naimless Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 2:14 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: Where you're wrong is that the majority of people CLAIM to have experiences with a deity, but that claim should not be taken at face value.

But it isn't an extraordinary claim if the majority of humans claim it...

No. As has been pointed out to you many, many times I'm sure, it's an extraordinary claim because of the scope of the claim. That there is an invisible, all powerful, all knowing, all seeing deity who created everything yet can only speak through a select few humans is THE extraordinary claim to end all extraordinary claims. And yet the standard of evidence for it is not extraordinary.

(September 8, 2014 at 2:18 pm)Chad32 Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 2:13 pm)naimless Wrote: If you look at a species such as monkeys objectively and see that the majority of monkeys experience eating bananas and then a minority of monkeys don't experience eating bananas it is an extraordinary claim to say that the majority of monkeys do not experience eating bananas.

Similarly if you look at humans objectively, it is an extraordinary claim to say that the majority of humans don't experience some form of deity.

It does not matter if I subjectively experience bananas or deities, or not. The majority of monkeys and humans experience them, respectively. Therefore a claim to have found god for a human is not that extraordinary, objectively speaking. It is like a monkey claiming to have found a banana.

Whether I think the monkey has actually found a banana, or if the banana exists or not, is not relevant.

The extraordinary part being that no one can prove that deities are real, as opposed to bananas.

I am talking about the extraordinariness of the claim, not whether the claim is real or not.

(September 8, 2014 at 2:24 pm)naimless Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 2:18 pm)Chad32 Wrote: The extraordinary part being that no one can prove that deities are real, as opposed to bananas.

I am talking about the extraordinariness of the claim, not whether the claim is real or not.

And the claims about deities are extraordinary, whether they are true or not. Thus, they require extraordianry evidence.