(September 19, 2014 at 6:30 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Naha...Not in my watch lady!

You do realize that there wed atheist in the ancient times as well right?

Just because you have no choice that to receive an education in a religious school that doesn't automatically makes you a supporter of religion.

I don't want to sound rude or offend you since you sound like a nice person but I gotta ask:
Separating the good values from religion to make them more noticeable?WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THAT WE ATHEISTS HAVE BEEN DOING ALL THIS TIME!! HAVEN'T YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING?

1. I'm a Gentleman, not a Lady.

2. Yes there were a few atheists in ancient times, but that is besides the point.

3. Atheists are disorganized, there is no institution to promote the observance of these virtues aside from individual interest. Religion however does have the ability to speak to a large crowd of people and to motivate them to do stuff. Often many claim an authority that they do not have and use their influence for their own benefit instead of the benefit of the people.

Were we atheists to have a 'school' for the the observance and practice of these virtues imagine just what good we could do.

One thing I've noticed is that there is a lot of negativity of religion on this forum, I've seen many list all of the bad things that I know religion has. I have not seen, however, people listing some of the good things religion has.

Take it upon yourself to list them? While you're at it, try secular humanism.

(September 18, 2014 at 10:43 pm)Celestine Wrote: Reflection, Sacrifice, Charity, Abstinence! Endurance, Compassion, Courage, Wisdom! All wasted! The message lost, what a tragedy! Misplaced by fools replaced by scum!

Sin, Forgiveness! What wonderful concepts if only implemented correctly!

Recitation of these virtues what the world would have become! Wasted on the veneration of deities when the veneration should be of these virtues!

You know now what religion is, this deformed beast of Baal, but you know not what it hides in its ruin!

This is the treasure more valuable than ivory, more valuable than an earth filled with gold! Yet you would forsake it? I think not!

Too many exclamation points, and unsubstantiated claims.

Rewrite and resubmit.

(September 19, 2014 at 8:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Take it upon yourself to list them? While you're at it, try secular humanism.

Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Too many exclamation points, and unsubstantiated claims.

Rewrite and resubmit.

Were I to show you would you be able to see past your veil? Expecting others to prove things instead of seeking it for yourself, should I tell you and have you believe me what benefit would that do? Should you not look for the information yourself instead of trusting the word of a stranger?

Our father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day, our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into tempation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

In the bold parts this prayer often said by Christians venerates not only a god, but also forgiveness and good morality. If you had a slight inclination of what is written in the New Testament it talks of a man who sacrificed himself for the salvation of all humanity.

Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen.

In this Hail Mary there is acknowledgment of sin, and therefore acknowledgment that we are not perfect.

In fact one of the main focuses of Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism is to not sin, a famous quote by the Christian prophet/god is to 'love thy neighbor, as you love thyself' another quote is to 'turn the other cheek' this preaches non-violence when confronted with violence, compassion for our fellow men.

These are all humbling virtues to observe, how could you not know this? These are among the most popular of Christian beliefs and virtues its all in their religion the same you fight against and you you could not see it? These are just the ones I remember from when I was a Catholic, I do not know enough of what Muslim or Buddhism to speak for them but on the surface they hold much of the same virtues.

(September 19, 2014 at 7:57 pm)Celestine Wrote: ...the good things religion has.

(excerpt)

Do I seem like the kind of Joe what wears a veil? That was an idiotic way to begin your thought, but at least you followed through. Yes, I expect others to at least -attempt- to establish the truth claims they make. You don't? Just getting out of bed in the morning must be very tricky for you.

You can tell me (anything) all you like, but that won't immediately lead to my believing you. If, however, you tell me in such a way as I actually do "believe" you - then I'd say you'd have done me a hell of a service, a great benefit (especially considering your claim). Rather than making excuses for your inaction or incompetence - why not just do the work?

-The bolded bits also assume that we need to be led. It puts the impetus on another as though it weren't completely our own business whether or not we do good or evil. It's garbage. I'd rather that people took responsibility for their own actions, and their own pursuit of a good and moral life.

-We aren't perfect, and yet we are not sinners. Not only that, we needn't have anyone pray -for us- (and what good would that do, nada). If we wish to be better than we are, we ought to make that happen ourselves. Again, garbage (and for the same reasons as above).

-Love thy neighbor, meh - sounds nice, unless your neighbor is a dick...and I won't be turning the other cheek anytime soon. That;s a good way to make sure that being a bully pays (you see....ported in this notion is that somebody else, somewhere, somehow, will "punish" said bullies - which aint gonna happen - and if we remove that....then turning the other cheek sounds ignorant and deleterious - which it is). Count me out. Garbage.

Got any more? Of course I;d "fight against" that nonsense. I'd rather live in a world where people take personal responsibility and every tyrant who pops up with a will to do evil doesn't become the Supreme Ayatollah of Whereverland (all while we wait for fairies to "deliver us" - no less). I don't speak for every atheist, but something you ought to know about me is that my main objection to religion is not that it's wrong (we get things wrong all the time, no sweat), but that it would be disgusting if it (or any of it's principles) were true.

(September 19, 2014 at 8:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Do I seem like the kind of Joe what wears a veil? That was an idiotic way to begin your thought, but at least you followed through. Yes, I expect others to at least -attempt- to establish the truth claims they make. You don't? Just getting out of bed in the morning must be very tricky for you.

You can tell me (anything) all you like, but that won't immediately lead to my believing you. If, however, you tell me in such a way as I actually do "believe" you - then I'd say you'd have done me a hell of a service, a great benefit (especially considering your claim). Rather than making excuses for your inaction or incompetence - why not just do the work?

The bolded bits also assume that we need to be led. It puts the impetus on another as though it weren't completely our own business whether or not we do good or evil. It's garbage. I'd rather that people took responsibility for their own actions, and their own pursuit of a good and moral life.

I thought that since atheists fight against the bad qualities of religion or religion entirely that they would at least already know the good qualities of religion so I didn't think there would be a need to provide examples for something they should already know.

Certainly all the atheists on here seem to know the defects of religion, but if they do not bother to learn the good of religion then they are being biased in their research.

The Christian religion from what I know is revolves around people praying to their god to help them overcome the obstacles in their life when they are not venerating him. In Islam and Christianity this god is central to their religion so it is expected that this god would help lead people.

I'm simply not aware of any of it's good qualities (I can speculate though!). From my POV, everytime religion even approaches something decent it manages to fuck it up in a positively glorious way - as per those examples you offered. The christian religion revolves around adherence to superstition and ignorance. That is the -sum total- of christianity. It has nothing to offer me (and it's core value is the most disgusting single thing that I can think of). If I want to overcome an obstacle - I push through the foe, to the objective - to triumph overall. I don't waste my time praying to thin air - waiting to be lifted on the wings of angels.

"The gods help those that help themselves" eh?

(September 18, 2014 at 10:43 pm)Celestine Wrote: Reflection, Sacrifice, Charity, Abstinence! Endurance, Compassion, Courage, Wisdom! All wasted! The message lost, what a tragedy! Misplaced by fools replaced by scum!

Sin, Forgiveness! What wonderful concepts if only implemented correctly!

Recitation of these virtues what the world would have become! Wasted on the veneration of deities when the veneration should be of these virtues!

You know now what religion is, this deformed beast of Baal, but you know not what it hides in its ruin!

This is the treasure more valuable than ivory, more valuable than an earth filled with gold! Yet you would forsake it? I think not!

Sin was a fortified city in Egypt. It wasn't much of a vacation spot like Las Vegas. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...V;KJ21;LEB[/url]

(September 19, 2014 at 8:50 pm)Celestine Wrote: Our father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day, our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into tempation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

In the bold parts this prayer often said by Christians venerates not only a god, but also forgiveness and good morality. If you had a slight inclination of what is written in the New Testament it talks of a man who sacrificed himself for the salvation of all humanity.

Its not good morality - its a brand of particularly bad morality. It portrays humans as weak-willed and impotent - incapable of earning a living on their own and without any self-control. The idea is not to avoid temptation but to indulge in it in such a way so as to make the experience more fulfilling and long-lasting. You should not credit someone else with your achievement, but build your self-esteem on it. As for forgiveness - the idea of forgiving someone who hasn't made up for his actions - or even tried to - is an affront to one's sense of justice. To top it all off, the thing about venerating the scapegoating of one man so that others get a get-out-of-jail-free card is simply disgusting.

(September 19, 2014 at 8:50 pm)Celestine Wrote: Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen.

In this Hail Mary there is acknowledgment of sin, and therefore acknowledgment that we are not perfect.

Except, apparently, the cure for imperfection is prayer. Not something that you should do to improve yourself. Not identifying how and why you are imperfect and trying to correct that - but praying. More of biblical immorality.

(September 19, 2014 at 8:50 pm)Celestine Wrote: In fact one of the main focuses of Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism is to not sin, a famous quote by the Christian prophet/god is to 'love thy neighbor, as you love thyself' another quote is to 'turn the other cheek' this preaches non-violence when confronted with violence, compassion for our fellow men.

Really? And here I always thought that giving in to cruelty, violence or simply bullying is the wrong thing to do. If you confronted with violence and consistently give in to it, then all you are doing is encouraging the perpetrator to repeat his actions. Fighting, violently if necessary, to prevent the occurrence of violence, to prevent the harm it does, is the right thing to do.

(September 19, 2014 at 8:50 pm)Celestine Wrote: These are all humbling virtues to observe, how could you not know this? These are among the most popular of Christian beliefs and virtues its all in their religion the same you fight against and you you could not see it? These are just the ones I remember from when I was a Catholic, I do not know enough of what Muslim or Buddhism to speak for them but on the surface they hold much of the same virtues.

These aren't virtues - they're pretensions of virtue. If you're saying that these so-called 'virtues' are something religion gives us, then I'm not taking it.

---

(September 19, 2014 at 9:18 pm)Celestine Wrote: I thought that since atheists fight against the bad qualities of religion or religion entirely that they would at least already know the good qualities of religion so I didn't think there would be a need to provide examples for something they should already know.

Still waiting. Those examples you gave are more of the bad qualities of religion.

(September 19, 2014 at 9:18 pm)Celestine Wrote: The Christian religion from what I know is revolves around people praying to their god to help them overcome the obstacles in their life when they are not venerating him. In Islam and Christianity this god is central to their religion so it is expected that this god would help lead people.

Instead of, say, figuring it out themselves.