Does this thread boil down to... "Humble yourselves, and submit to theistic bullying"?

I'm beginning to wonder

The title "Why condemning the Theistic position makes no sense" seems to suggest so.

Why shouldn't I condemn a system that condemns me?

[/thread]

Seriously.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:39 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:25 pm)tjakey Wrote: You are suggesting that atheist take a "more humble" approach to theists. I am suggesting that, perhaps, we are already taking too humble an approach and should step up our game.

Isn't the problem in the world that people are often too arrogant to make the peaceful resolution. To compromise. To say, "what if there is merit to the other side".

I don't know. Just a thought. Maybe following the arrogance of everyone isn't the best solution to solving the arrogance of everyone.

There is no god, so there is no merit to the other side. The best we can hope for is that they don't interpret the claimed sayings of their particular god in a way that leads to violence. If history, and today's headlines, are any guide, that is a forlorn hope.

And I'm am a bit confused as to what your idea of "humility" might be. Are we supposed to bow and contritely admit that, well, if they think god said beheading the infidels was the righteous thing to do, we certainly wouldn't want to offend by insisting that they are barbarians and an evil loose on the world? Is your idea of humility is to agree that their (whoever "they" might be) god just might possibly exist so, well, go ahead and subvert the science education of every American student, stone the gay person to death, treat women as property, refuse medical treatment for a sick child, start a new crusade in the middle east, ... the list is endless.

Because if it is, then sorry, I have no intention of being "humble" before the insane claims of the believers. They can believe anything they want, they can even state their belief openly so far as I care, and we will not even debate the merits of their claims unless they want to give it a go. But the instant they start imposing the implications of their beliefs on those who do not believe as they do, humility only serves to make room for evil. When religion acts people are oppressed, abused, and killed.

I am all for a peaceful resolution. Unfortunately that means the believers keeping their ideology out of my life while they think "being godly" means just the opposite. So, while it takes two to make a fight, but it only takes one to start an fight. When it comes to imposing beliefs on others, the fights are always started by the believer. When they are humble enough to keep their religion to themselves, I'll be humble enough to let them be.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:26 pm)Celestine Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 11:12 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Did I posted this one bad as well?

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.At-Tawba 29

Heres is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29

So you can tell me if it talks about self-defense.

Yep, these Suras mostly talk about oath breakers (polytheists who have broken their oaths and violently attacked Muslims) in Sura 9 Verse 6 it even says and I quote "If a polytheist seeks your protection, grant him protection until he hears the speech of God, then escort him to where he feels safe."

IT also says in another verse to stay true to those who didn't break their treaties. So the Christians and Jews here were in context of those who broke the peace treaty as well. Not those who didn't.

Finally someone who reads to understand the Quran and not just find faults with it.

Oh FFS, you see a friendly response and that's an occassion to indirectly blast everyone who offers a critical one.

Now I'm forgetting that you're not a muslim.....

Quote:Other verses exist that are conditional, meaning that they read like this: “O Muslims. Fight against those polytheists for the reason that they are in aggression against you, because they are in a state of war with you, and therefore you definitely have to fight against them.”

Thus it becomes clear that where the Qur’an says: “O Prophet Fight against the kuffar and hypocrites,” it means that we must fight those kuffar and hypocrites who are fighting us and who will continue fighting if we fight them.

Conditional verses? Does God rules is open for condition? Or is just an attempt to twist the law in order that it both justify those who want to commit aggressive actions and at the same time forgives those who doesn't?

And let's not forget that it says:

Other verses exist that are conditional, meaning that they read like this:

Which other verses?
It certainly can't be SAHIH INTERNATIONAL,MUHSIN KHAN, PICKTHAL, YUSUF ALI, SHAKIR, DR. GHALI.

So which other versers it's referring to?

Mk and Cele blowing right past me

Chickenshits.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:28 pm)ShaMan Wrote: Does this thread boil down to... "Humble yourselves, and submit to theistic bullying"?

I'm beginning to wonder

The title "Why condemning the Theistic position makes no sense" seems to suggest so.

Why shouldn't I condemn a system that condemns me?

[/thread]

Seriously.

You can condemn the system that condemns you. I have no quarrels with that. I was talking about specifically condemning the universal theistic stance of believing in God. I think if Atheists were to be consistent in that, and logical, they would see it makes no sense to do that. It's better to admit there maybe merit to faith in God, but that you are skeptical as opposed to out right rejecting it.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I thought you quoted a verse telling us to kill Christians and Jews. So you tell me. You seem to know so much about Islam. More then the majority of Muslims who live side by side disbelievers and don't kill them. Go ahead and tell us. Muslims are suppose to kill all those we don't marry? Is that it?

No I quoted verses about infidels and non believers.
Then you mentioned the christians and jews not me.
And like I stipulated before again and again.
WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS BESIDES THOSE THREE?

So don't turn the question to me. Just because you don't want to answer it.

I in every moment in every speech was referring to people of all the different religions: not only jews and christians.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Oh FFS, you see a friendly response and that's an occassion to indirectly blast everyone who offers a critical one.

Now I'm forgetting that you're not a muslim.....

If by critical you mean flaming, misinterpretations, bigotry, and the such...

(September 20, 2014 at 9:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Therefore it is more reasonable that Atheists take a more humble approach to their Atheism, that they simply state this is the position they take, but they don't necessarily condemn the Theistic position.

Holy stinking dogcrap no!

Just this past week a grandfather killed his daughter and six kids because he believed in a heaven where they would all be better off.

This past month ISIS posted videos of the brutal execution of non-muslims because they thought it was what "god" wanted them to do and that they would be rewarded for it.

Coming out as Gay today in many places of the US and Russia will get you attacked and bullied. In parts of Africa it will get you killed because of religion.

Religion is not just a harmless fairytale that people take to heart, it is a dangerous delusion.