(September 20, 2014 at 9:48 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: When theists stop claiming to know the will of their god and trying to impose it on the rest of us, I will then try to be more "humble"

That sir is a generalization, mosts theists don't claim to know the will of their god other than what was written in ancient tomes

(September 20, 2014 at 10:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Zidneya Wrote: KORAN commands to kill infidels:

So it allows you to marry Christians and Jews but commands you to kill them as well?

He didn't post the entire quotes of those verses, I've read a bit of the Quran and I can tell you the ones he posted where it actually talks about killing are in self-defense when they themselves are being killed or attacked.

For example 2:191/2:193 the entire verse is

Quote:2:193 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression: God loves not the aggressors. slay them wherever you fall upon them, and expel them from where they had expelled you; apostasy by force is indeed more serious than slaying. Do not fight them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight you therein. If they fight you therein, slay them: such is the reward for unbelievers. But if they desist, then God is All-Forgiving, Compassionate to each. Fight them until there is no longer forced apostasy, and the religion is God's. If they desist, no aggression is permitted, except against the wicked. A Holy Month will substitute for a Holy Month, and sacrilege calls for retaliation. Whoever commits aggression against you, retaliate against him in the same measure as he committed against you. Fear God and knows that God stands by the pious.

The rest of his quotes from Islam is pretty much just the condemnation of unbelievers by god, not promoting violence.

I agree atheists need to be more humble and there are things GOOD things that we can learn from religion, unlike many of the atheists here I think I'm the only one who holds this opinion.

Humility is a virtue something which I strive for because I have in the past looked at myself as higher and better than everyone else. Still do now but not to the same extent.

One of my main interests in religion though is prayer/meditation.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well if you look at the verse in my signature, it shows all good people will enter paradise. Those who do good will enter paradise.

Even by the sword of allah, held in the hand of a man.

Yes, I know what your book says

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(September 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Celestine Wrote: I agree atheists Humans need to be more humble and there are things GOOD things that we can learn from religion each other...

(quote altered, emphasis added)

(September 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Celestine Wrote: ...unlike many of the atheists here I think I'm the only one who holds this opinion.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Celestine Wrote: That sir is a generalization...

How very humble of you

ETA: In an entirely dualistic sense.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: So it allows you to marry Christians and Jews but commands you to kill them as well?

And what about Buddhists? and Shintoists? and Mormons? and Shamans?and Atheists? does Allah allows them to marry them as well?

Because last time I checked Islam, it is permissible, though being makruh tahrimi, for Muslim males to marry the females from among the People of the Book(Christian and Jewish women, but then again what about all the others I mentioned?) and only if they must be chaste and all of the children must be brought up Muslim.
But that's because its a misogynistic rule since women are seen as object of breed because when the female is the Muslim and the male belongs to someone else. Oh that's when it comes interesting.
Islamic scholars generally forbid Muslim women from marrying non-Muslim men. This prohibition serves to preserve the Islamic faith from dilution and expand it, within societies which are patriarchal but multi-faith. It effectively ensures that over many generations, providing that the society is patriarchal, Islam would naturally gain in adherents relative to other co-existing religions, through its ability to secure the adherence of all offspring from mixed marriages. In effect, all children of any mixed-marriages involving Muslims are guaranteed to be raised as Muslim.

That's a different topic. I hate personally the whole marriage thing in Islam. I know Sunnis would not give off their daughters to Shias more often then not and this one reason I couldn't marry a person which I and her were in love with each other with.

I wish there was no such rule. Islam definitely has it flaws. But what it certainly doesn't do is command to kill those it tells you you can marry.

And the point of what I said, is those verses, have a context. And with context of rest of verses, they are absurd if you interpret to mean to kill all non adherents to Islam.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Celestine Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 9:48 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: That sir is a generalization, mosts theists don't claim to know the will of their god other than what was written in ancient tomes

He didn't post the entire quotes of those verses, I've read a bit of the Quran and I can tell you the ones he posted where it actually talks about killing are in self-defense when they themselves are being killed or attacked.

Did I posted this one bad as well?

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.At-Tawba 29

Heres is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29

So you can tell me if it talks about self-defense.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:12 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Celestine Wrote: He didn't post the entire quotes of those verses, I've read a bit of the Quran and I can tell you the ones he posted where it actually talks about killing are in self-defense when they themselves are being killed or attacked.

Did I posted this one bad as well?

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.At-Tawba 29

Heres is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29

So you can tell me if it talks about self-defense.

Have a read of the following: http://www.al-islam.org/jihad-holy-war-i...bout-jihad

It's a really good book. The thing is I got this understanding from grade 9. It's not rocket science. And it's the understanding of the majority of Muslims. But it's explained there rationally. Have a good read.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: That's a different topic.

Nanana That's the same topic. We are taking about infidels and you mentioned that is okay marrying jews and christians but I have news for you there are other religions besides Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I hate personally the whole marriage thing in Islam.

Don't tell that to me you're the one who brought it up.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But what it certainly doesn't do is command to kill those it tells you you can marry.

AND WHAT ABOUT THOSE IT TELLS YOU, YOU CAN'T MARRY?

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(September 20, 2014 at 11:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Have a read of the following: http://www.al-islam.org/jihad-holy-war-i...bout-jihad

It's a really good book. The thing is I got this understanding from grade 9. It's not rocket science. And it's the understanding of the majority of Muslims. But it's explained there rationally. Have a good read.

Does that book says explicitly that the verse that I mentioned early is overruled and shouldn't be taken in count?

(September 20, 2014 at 11:19 pm)Zidneya Wrote: AND WHAT ABOUT THOSE IT TELLS YOU, YOU CAN'T MARRY?

I thought you quoted a verse telling us to kill Christians and Jews. So you tell me. You seem to know so much about Islam. More then the majority of Muslims who live side by side disbelievers and don't kill them. Go ahead and tell us. Muslims are suppose to kill all those we don't marry? Is that it?

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(September 20, 2014 at 11:19 pm)Zidneya Wrote: Does that book says explicitly that the verse that I mentioned early is overruled and shouldn't be taken in count?

No, just that it should be understood in light of the other verses which specify limitations to those who you can fight.

It's all simple language. It just becomes difficult when you go to find fault in the verse as opposed to understanding it.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well if you look at the verse in my signature,

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it shows all good people will enter paradise. Those who do good will enter paradise. There were a lot of scholars even in the early days of Islam that said disbelievers meant in context of socio-political group, particularly those who were fighting Mohammad and the believers at that time in Arabia. It didn't refer to everyone who didn't believe or would not believe in the future.

The Shia hadiths in detail say that anyone who doesn't know the truth and doesn't oppose it, would not be judged as a "disbeliever" that is condemned in Quran.

It's one of those debatable things but I think if you take account verses like the one in my signature, as well as verses that talk about the nature of humanity being the true religion of God, I think you come to realize the Quran perhaps didn't come with this dogmatic view that we see many scholars did come up with.

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As Islam was manufactured by men over a stretch of indeterminate time - of course- there will have been a point at which it's dogma had not been codified or set in stone. If I have to take two verses that say entirely disparate things and decide which one is the party line, or if I have to imagine that what is meant by the words on the page as something-other than- what words are on the page - the proposition is DOA. Don;t get me wrong, I like your interpretation - but something (maybe the constant invocations of hellfire and pain for the unbelievers repeated ad naus throughout the entirety of the text) tells me that it's a minority report - at best. Your verse doesn't seem, to me, to make the claim that -you- make about it. "Those that do good" would not include the unbelievers. You know as well as I that Islam (like all religions) has special definitions and categories for this sort of thing.

(September 20, 2014 at 11:12 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 11:05 pm)Celestine Wrote: He didn't post the entire quotes of those verses, I've read a bit of the Quran and I can tell you the ones he posted where it actually talks about killing are in self-defense when they themselves are being killed or attacked.

Did I posted this one bad as well?

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.At-Tawba 29

Heres is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29

So you can tell me if it talks about self-defense.

Yep, these Suras mostly talk about oath breakers (polytheists who have broken their oaths and violently attacked Muslims) in Sura 9 Verse 6 it even says and I quote "If a polytheist seeks your protection, grant him protection until he hears the speech of God, then escort him to where he feels safe."

Also I'm pretty sure your quote was talking about Muslims who refused to pay Zakat or the non-believer equivalent which was like their form of tax. Any part of a kingdom that refused to pay taxes was viewed as being rebellious the government needs those taxes obviously so it must get these people back into line or others might be inspired not to pay taxes and it would undermine the entire system! But again that deals with an 'oath' to the state.

Man, I even forgot for a second I wasn't Muslim. See what you did to me.