(September 21, 2014 at 1:50 am)Rhythm Wrote: I didn't make that distinction, no one consulted me (or you) - that's just religion for ya. We're assuming for the purposes of discussion that it had in it's hands something of worth (in truth I could poke holes in that text from sunup to sundown - I'm reading it in peices atm) - and what did it do? Snip snip.

You said it was apocrypha as if it somehow discounted the message of that quote, note I'm not saying the entire book is of the same value but that quote I found to be golden. It is as a coin collector looks through many old coins to find one in good condition. I don't care about the text as a whole, only these few good coins that I might find in it.

You said to come back when I had gathered something useful and I did.

(September 20, 2014 at 10:44 pm)ShaMan Wrote: I think I finally see the point of the OP. He's saying this to one crowd (atheists). He's not saying that theists cannot also be un-humble (arrogant). He's just addressing one side from his own perspective.

I am constantly taken aback by the lack of humility among Christians. There are exceptions of course. But most seem to affect a smirky sort of confidence. They KNOW that god exists. They KNOW what He wants. They KNOW that the holy spirit is revealing God directly to them all the time. And they know they are God's special servant here to work his will on others.

(September 21, 2014 at 2:00 am)Celestine Wrote: You said it was apocrypha as if it somehow discounted the message of that quote, note I'm not saying the entire book is of the same value but that quote I found to be golden.

But, again, religion didn't agree. They waffled, and ultimately decided not to include it. You'll find many examples of this in the apocrypha which, to my mind, contains some of the best thought on the periphery - but it just isn't about whether or not any given quote is golden or whether or not you or I like it, is it?

Quote:You said to come back when I had gathered something useful and I did.

Yes, very useful, again, at arguing -my- position. We haven't even begun to unpack this beyond the fact that it got shitcanned. Mostly because that's enough to establish that religion can't even be counted upon to know when a good thing may have landed in it's lap - if this is the only example you have to present. It all comes down to whether or not the narrative toes the party line, obviously. By all means, bring me more of these, make a thread devoted to them. I doubt that I'll be as generous with the next example - but you never know.

(September 21, 2014 at 2:05 am)whateverist Wrote:

(September 20, 2014 at 10:44 pm)ShaMan Wrote: I think I finally see the point of the OP. He's saying this to one crowd (atheists). He's not saying that theists cannot also be un-humble (arrogant). He's just addressing one side from his own perspective.

I am constantly taken aback by the lack of humility among Christians. There are exceptions of course. But most seem to affect a smirky sort of confidence. They KNOW that god exists. They KNOW what He wants. They KNOW that the holy spirit is revealing God directly to them all the time. And they know they are God's special servant here to work his will on others.

Let's not forget: they KNOW that anyone who doesn't agree with them is damned -- and deservedly so. Humble, meek, and mild indeed! What was that about judging a tree by its fruits?

(September 20, 2014 at 9:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Atheists often say they don't know whether or not God exists and that simply God is not known to them to exist by tangible evidence, reasoned argument or experience. They also tend to say that their position is solely based on what they have experienced. They don't know proofs for God, so they won't assume there are any proofs for God. God hasn't revealed himself to them so they won't assume he has to others.

This is a fair point of view.

But what makes no sense is to assume others don't have any good reason to believe in God or there is no merit to faith.

This is taking a step further. You would have to either prove there is no God or that if there is a God, he has not made himself known to anyone.

Therefore it is more reasonable that Atheists take a more humble approach to their Atheism, that they simply state this is the position they take, but they don't necessarily condemn the Theistic position.

I believe others have good reasons to believe in god but I don't believe any of those reasons have to do with evidential facts they have discovered, they are to do with psychology(brainwashing, tribe mentality), superstition, self preservation, ideas of soul preservation and so on.

If you think it's a good idea to listen to every person who claims they have new evidence about god not only will your life be wasted listening to mentally disturbed people but you will also be giving credit to the idea that maybe god operates in a way where he allows a billion false cults to start but gives the real evidence to just one man, in one language, at one specific time in history, and relies on the message to spread via other men.

I think it's actually dangerous to take this humble mentality towards new cult leaders. The last thing the earth needs is another Joseph Smith/Muhammad/Charles Manson/ Reverend Jim Jones. They need to be stomped out before they can spread.

But this is just my outlook though, maybe in some way cults do improve civilization as a whole, just like some people believe war improves civilizations, and tyrants are sometimes necessary, but personally its my plan to avoid cults and their followers as much as possible.

(September 21, 2014 at 2:10 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 21, 2014 at 2:00 am)Celestine Wrote: You said it was apocrypha as if it somehow discounted the message of that quote, note I'm not saying the entire book is of the same value but that quote I found to be golden.

But, again, religion didn't agree. They waffled, and ultimately decided not to include it. You'll find many examples of this in the apocrypha which, to my mind, contains some of the best thought on the periphery - but it just isn't about whether or not any given quote is golden or whether or not you or I like it, is it?

Quote:You said to come back when I had gathered something useful and I did.

Yes, very useful, again, at arguing -my- position. We haven't even begun to unpack this beyond the fact that it got shitcanned. Mostly because that's enough to establish that religion can't even be counted upon to know when a good thing may have landed in it's lap - if this is the only example you have to present. It all comes down to whether or not the narrative toes the party line, obviously. By all means, bring me more of these, make a thread devoted to them. I doubt that I'll be as generous with the next example - but you never know.

My research into religion has just begun, shall I present to you a seed or the tree after its cultivation?

If you read the Shepherd of Hermas you would know that it doesn't deal (from what I've read) with Jesus Christ at all, if you knew about the New Testament you would know that the New Testament deals almost entirely with the life, teachings, and death of Jesus Christ. So it makes sense that they wouldn't put books that didn't relate with the life of Jesus at all in the Bible, not that they didn't have worth.

I'd prefer at least a bush. I'm a farmer myself, I don't show up to market with a sign that says "tomatos" and a bushel full of seeds. It does indeed deal with christ, albeit breifly, and the manner in which it deals with christ is why (or at least one of the reasons) it got the axe. It seemed to suggest a competing christology than that which the church was running with - and that was and still remains far more important than any quote mining that you or I may do in the here and now.

Howsabout you google this stuff before you comment? You might find that I'm a far less rude person when I don't have to constantly supply this information to you. Even when I know something like the back of my hand - I still google it and fact check my recollection. It helps. On the count of what does or does not relate to some "life of jesus" good luck with that - you'll probably have to face down some glaring issues with that notion in the course of your research.

If I knew about this, If I knew about that. I do, douche. Now demonstrate that -you do-. I absolutely love these little stories (and not just the christian ones, by far the poorest of the bunch) -as narratives-. I'm simply of the opinion that as guidebooks for life, morality, etc, they're useless (and often worse than useless, counterproductive at best - destructive at worst). You don't actually come to a position like that without having...you know....read the stories, dug up the history.

Humbleness sucks. If I wanted humbleness I most certainly wouldn't be called Cap'n Awesome.

(September 21, 2014 at 2:40 am)Rhythm Wrote: I'd prefer at least a bush. I'm a farmer myself, I don't show up to market with a sign that says "tomatos" and a bushel full of seeds. It does indeed deal with christ, albeit breifly, and the manner in which it deals with christ is why (or at least one of the reasons) it got the axe. It seemed to suggest a competing christology than that which the church was running with - and that was and still remains far more important than any quote mining that you or I may do in the here and now.

Howsabout you google this stuff before you comment? You might find that I'm a far less rude person when I don't have to constantly supply this information to you. Even when I know something like the back of my hand - I still google it and fact check my recollection. It helps. On the count of what does or does not relate to some "life of jesus" good luck with that - you'll probably have to face down some glaring issues with that notion in the course of your research.

If I knew about this, If I knew about that. I do, douche. Now demonstrate that -you do-. I absolutely love these little stories (and not just the christian ones, by far the poorest of the bunch) -as narratives-. I'm simply of the opinion that as guidebooks for life, morality, etc, they're useless (and often worse than useless, counterproductive at best - destructive at worst). You don't actually come to a position like that without having...you know....read the stories, dug up the history.

I don't know, that is why I'm reading these books, notice when my knowledge was extremely limited I said 'as far as I know' I don't generally wish to google things unless I have to and since I have the book the Shepherd of Hermas there is no need to google it as time will reveal its contents to me.

Seemingly you seem to think now that you knew something that I did not that this makes you better than me it reflects in your post when you call me a douche, telling me to google something before I comment, and then making it seem as though you are a curator of a vast library of these ancient books and have studied them with fervor despite telling me that you just googled this. Again I never said that these books would serve as good guidebooks or even whole, I said I just wish for the philosophy contained within yet you somehow misinterpret this to mean 'I want to follow the book word for word'. Your presumptions are your weakness.

Also you'd be surprised how many atheists called the Quran destructive despite not having read it for themselves. As far as I've gotten (about 70 pages) I have not seen anything destructive in there yet.

Committing myself to you in dialogue on this matter seems poignant as you keep running in circles of the same things regardless of that which is given to you, and I for one don't like repetition in a conversation.

(September 21, 2014 at 2:46 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: Humbleness sucks. If I wanted humbleness I most certainly wouldn't be called Cap'n Awesome.

I respect you. And I don't want to offend you, that been said.
KEVIN!, SHUT THE HELL UP!
You have any idea how many arrogant prideful people are out there. The last thing we need is another one. Now if you have full trust in your convictions just say it. But don't even think for a second that Humbleness is a bad thing. Nor it sucks. You never asked yourself why people consider pride as a bad thing?!!





“A great man is always willing to be little.”
― Ralph Waldo Emerson

“True humility is not thinking less of yourself; it is thinking of yourself less.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

"Pride makes us artificial and humility makes us real".
― Thomas Merton

“A true genius admits that he/she knows nothing.”
― Albert Einstein

“How can I be a great man —like you?”
“Why be a great man?” said the Master. “Being a man is a great enough achievement.”
― Antony De Mello


If you don't care about any of what I said I dunno what else I can say to make you understand. Mr. Mohler have a nice day or whatever.