In this thread I will be talking about the 3 stages that made me believe in Islam and that it is the truth I will start with atheism then agnosticism and at last the reasons that made me believe

I was born in a Muslim family that wasn’t that religious and until I was 22 years old I didn’t care much about being religious then my best friend father died and I was responsible to put him in the grave it was really scary and that was the start to make me think about what will happen to me after death. I was really confused as my information about religion was so limited to my study in the school which was really not deep and also not satisfying for any questions in my head the first question comes in to my head was the normal question of everyone who created god?

It took me a long time thinking about that which was very stupid as this question even if it have an answer it have no end and also no one ever said that god is created. then I started thinking that maybe we are created by chance or by something we don’t understand but the question was getting so complicated in my head until I found the right question to be asked which I see is the end question it’s the only question that if answered will have an end which is what was before existence? This lead me to another question which is how did we come from none existence to existence? This question has only 2 possible answers

1-that we came by chance and we don’t know how,
2-there is something that always existed and we don’t know how

I kept thinking about these 2 questions with no answers at all. all I get is a headache but no answers then I started asking myself could I ever know the answer of this questions? I admitted that I will never know the answer of these questions except in 2 cases:

1-if we saw something that existed forever (which is impossible as we all has beginning and end)
2-other case was if we create non existence (which I can't even imagine)

And this was really annoying me and I was not able to continue my life without knowing for sure what will happen after that. I was like 70% saying that there is god for the following reasons:

1-there is a system in everything (if we came by chance nothing will be in a system everything will happen by chance)
2-we never saw anything coming to existence from non existence without someone doing something (I existed and I didn’t create myself so somebody must have created me)
3-why do we have the ability to think and choose better than animals (as that wasn’t essential for our survival)?
4-there are a lot of different species even a human being no one is like the other we are all different in a lot of things (why don’t we find human that look exactly like each other in everything even by chance)
5-how did the life (spirit) come from?
6-there are a lot of things that if changed a little in the natural laws it will end our existence. How these things are so constant (like gravity, water, air …etc)?
7-why doesn't each planet have living creatures with functions that goes with the nature of this planet?

That was some of the reasons according to my knowledge at this time that made me preferring that there is something powerful behind everything and we will never understand by trying to know what was the beginning (I was trying to find other ways that can prove the existence of god) the 30% percent was for the questions I don’t have an answer to (was actually a lot).

So the questions I want to know what you think about is:

1-do you think we could in one day understands what non existence is and how we come from none existence to existence?
2-what was before the existence?
3-can we ever understand eternity (and also no beginning)?
4-do you think that there is other ways to prove god existence without trying to ask questions we can't find an answer to (like who created god and what was before this?)
5-do you think that there is a proof that god doesn’t exist? (Percentage of existence or non existence in your opinion with the reasons)?

Then was the point I started searching in different religions (my next thread) as I think human cant make up something with no errors or contradiction even if it contains no error in their time it will have a lot of errors as our knowledge increase and also that if there is god he will surely contact us in any way or tell us why we are here and what we are suppose to do

NB: I wrote this thread according to my knowledge from 4 years and not according to my knowledge about Islam or any other believe so am not talking as a Muslim am talking as someone who was searching for the reality of our life and I ignored any answers I found when searching in different religions and also this is not the reasons that made me a believer that was just the first stage I passed through

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: I was born in a Muslim family

Say no more.

Quote:So the questions I want to know what you think about is:

1-do you think we could, one day understand what non-existence is and how we come from non- existence to existence?

Okay Mo3taz ...let's take this one at a time.

1. (My apologies for the corrections but it makes it easier for someone who is fluent in English to understand your question)

I am hoping the YES, one day, we WILL understand how this "non-existence to existence" actually works. But for myself, the current 'reasoning via religion' is inadequate and seems like "so many lies told to children" and so for me is rejected due to lack of evidence.

Quote:2-what was before the existence?

This would follow (In my humble opinion) from the results of question 1.

Quote:3-can we ever understand eternity (and also no beginning)?

This moves you back to your first question. The fact that people have a very hard time comprehending the size of a galaxy (let alone a Universe) would lead me to project the hypothesis that as a species there will be a great many who think as you do because to think otherwise (just blows their mind) is incomprehensible so that like you they will opt for the simple answer...goddit

As for "eternity"... you will have to wait for others who are more scientifically educated than I

Quote:4-do you think that there are other ways to prove the existence of god without trying to ask questions we can't find an answer to (like who created god and what was before this?)

No. Mainly because of the "Lies to Children" method of explaining the wild and wonderfully weird things we find in our galaxy, planet and interactions with others. Let alone the totally strange things that might be found outside our own solar system. The question of who created god before there was all "this" is irrelevant because it assumes the existence of such a creature.

Quote:5-do you think that there is a proof that god doesn’t exist? (Percentage of existence or non existence in your opinion with the reasons)?

The many and varied 'unanswered' prayers. The brutality of so called 'religious' people who rape, murder, use, and abuse their fellow countrymen. The fact that so many of the offspring are being born with terminal diseases...(I mean really, what crime have these innocents committed??)

The fact that science can and has demonstrated the so called 'glory of god's natural world' is just an evolution process that is still ongoing (does not detract from the wonder of it all, but nothing as far as I can see requires a deity)

The fact that abrahamic-religion has failed in a major way in my personal experience and that oriental 'religion' has also failed that I have sought solace in my own capabilities to make my way in this world and what comes after comes after. I am far too busy being (to borrow a new agers phrase) 'Here and Now' to concern myself with the what-ifs.

From your post mo3taz it would seem to me that you had come face to face with your own mortality and like a scared little prey went straight to your early teachings because you did not want to or were unable to ask the hard questions and get the hard answers. It is easy to be a slave and abdicate any responsibility for one's own life and choices; and so human to seek a "scapegoat" to bear the burden of one's inadequacies

I am hoping this is of assistance to your understanding of mine and others reasoning as to why we find your assertions a bit dull since they have been spoken of before by many others who have not necessarily been of the islamic faith.

The problem is you use the "God of the gaps" argument. Because you do not have an explanation, you decide that it must have been God. This is the same reasoning that the Greeks had when they said Zeus was making it rain by frowning.
Just because we don't know how something happens, does not mean a supernatural being made it happen.

Also about your question with our planet being so constant. 60% of its surface is inhabitable due to (undrinkable) water. We also have deserts, or even tropical temperatures that make life very difficult, except that because of evolution, some species managed to adapt and survive, and even then it is not very efficient. Many birds, just to survive, have to migrate to other climates every year. This is not efficient, and this is far from perfect.

Also, the reason we do not find two similar people is because our DNA is very complicated and the possibilities are very large, and if you add nurture to that, it is logical that you cannot find two similar people (except of course for twins)

plz guys am confirming again that this is not the reasons that made me believe. thats just the first stage i passed through which am interested to know from you wether there was answers for these questions in your opinion and some of these questions i found answers for later but i just want to know how you guys think from an atheist point of view

(June 21, 2010 at 6:15 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: plz guys am confirming again that this is not the reasons that made me believe. thats just the first stage i passed through which am interested to know from you wether there was answers for these questions in your opinion and some of these questions i found answers for later but i just want to know how you guys think from an atheist point of view

And we have answered you mo3taz...what is your issue here??

I am thinking that a lack of understanding english could be your issue.

(June 21, 2010 at 6:19 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

(June 21, 2010 at 6:15 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: plz guys am confirming again that this is not the reasons that made me believe. thats just the first stage i passed through which am interested to know from you wether there was answers for these questions in your opinion and some of these questions i found answers for later but i just want to know how you guys think from an atheist point of view

And we have answered you mo3taz...what is your issue here??

I am thinking that a lack of understanding english could be your issue.

who told you am talking to you?lol. am just confirming that so no one think that this is the main reasons of my beliefs i mentioned that in the main thread but i just wanted to put it as a post to be clear
my english is not that bad

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(June 21, 2010 at 5:07 am)Darwinian Wrote:

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: I was born in a Muslim family

Say no more.

my parents is not religious no one was forcing anything on me and if they were having blind faith for any reason that was not suitable for me and thats why i started searching for reasons and understanding of different beliefs and believe me if i found that there is errors in islam or a prove that it is not from god i would at least changed my beliefs even if i dont tell anyone and of course would not become religious

(June 21, 2010 at 6:15 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: plz guys am confirming again that this is not the reasons that made me believe. thats just the first stage i passed through which am interested to know from you wether there was answers for these questions in your opinion and some of these questions i found answers for later but i just want to know how you guys think from an atheist point of view

I'm going to give you a quick answer. You lack knowledge and understanding and so have opted for the god of the gaps argument. You don't know this_____so you fill in the missing information with "goddidit".
It's not knowledge, it's guess work. Saying goddidit is not differant from saying santadidit.
There is no evidence to suggest that some supernatural being was behind it but despite lack of supporting evidence, you still opt for that conclusion.
Just because we don't know something doesn't automaticly mean goddidit.

Saying goddidit only raises more questions.

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: 1-if we saw something that existed forever (which is impossible as we all has beginning and end)
2-other case was if we create non existence (which I can't even imagine)

There is something that exists forever matter and energy they just change they never stop existing(except when antimatters happens)

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: And this was really annoying me and I was not able to continue my life without knowing for sure what will happen after that. I was like 70% saying that there is god for the following reasons:

You we're trying to justify your meaning, you found it in islam, I found that I don't need a religion to find a meaning, and can conclude with logic and can distinguish between fairy tales and reality.

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: 1-there is a system in everything (if we came by chance nothing will be in a system everything will happen by chance)
2-we never saw anything coming to existence from non existence without someone doing something (I existed and I didn’t create myself so somebody must have created me)
3-why do we have the ability to think and choose better than animals (as that wasn’t essential for our survival)?
4-there are a lot of different species even a human being no one is like the other we are all different in a lot of things (why don’t we find human that look exactly like each other in everything even by chance)
5-how did the life (spirit) come from?
6-there are a lot of things that if changed a little in the natural laws it will end our existence. How these things are so constant (like gravity, water, air …etc)?
7-why doesn't each planet have living creatures with functions that goes with the nature of this planet?

1-The chaos theory or improbability, just because something is improbable to happen purely by chance doesn't mean it will never will.
2-True your mother.
3-It was for our survival, we evolved and we're given intelligence by random chance, intelligence proved to be successful in almost all environments even, so we were given a excellent tool to survival and the smart survived.
4-Because it applies a stronger law of improbability, first there is genetics, then there is the mother wombs, then there is how your personality is, and then there's how your culture influences your personality, then there are external factors to growth(nourishment exercise), then there are wounds, then there's a lot of tiny things that change, all this together makes the chances of finding two identical persons very improbable but still not impossible
5-Purely by chance, or Panspermia, spirit soul and mind exists in your brain
6-Because the Law is the LAW, you can't change it because it is how it is, laws define what it is if they were in anyway different the laws would be different but this is not the case.
7-Law of improbability, because to create life you need certain requirements and in our solar system only one planet has those requirements(although there are speculation of life on other planets of our solar system that explains panspermia), and we only be able to observe about 300 planets this is a incredibly tiny ammount and their mostly gas giants, planets that bear life are rare

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: That was some of the reasons according to my knowledge at this time that made me preferring that there is something powerful behind everything and we will never understand by trying to know what was the beginning (I was trying to find other ways that can prove the existence of god) the 30% percent was for the questions I don’t have an answer to (was actually a lot).

You where trying to prove that gods exists, however it's easier to prove that god doesn't exist, and there much that we don't understand yes, but it's not by imposing ignorance and speculation as proof(religion enforces this), that we will understand things around us.

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: So the questions I want to know what you think about is:

1-do you think we could in one day understands what non existence is and how we come from none existence to existence?
2-what was before the existence?
3-can we ever understand eternity (and also no beginning)?
4-do you think that there is other ways to prove god existence without trying to ask questions we can't find an answer to (like who created god and what was before this?)
5-do you think that there is a proof that god doesn’t exist? (Percentage of existence or non existence in your opinion with the reasons)?

1-don't know too far into the future
2-how do you know there's a before existence
3-eternal never beginning never ends, the universe might be eternal(god is eternal, universe is eternal, universe is god, the )
4-No because god can't be proven
5-There is lot of proof that god from the abraic scriptures doesn't exist, that or if he exists he is malevolent and a liar.

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: Then was the point I started searching in different religions (my next thread) as I think human cant make up something with no errors or contradiction even if it contains no error in their time it will have a lot of errors as our knowledge increase and also that if there is god he will surely contact us in any way or tell us why we are here and what we are suppose to do

If god existed and did that there would be no atheists only people in denial, however so far he didn't and he doesn't prove that he exists.

(June 21, 2010 at 3:51 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: NB: I wrote this thread according to my knowledge from 4 years and not according to my knowledge about Islam or any other believe so am not talking as a Muslim am talking as someone who was searching for the reality of our life and I ignored any answers I found when searching in different religions and also this is not the reasons that made me a believer that was just the first stage I passed through

It's very thoughtful and is not the usual *Religious rambling logical fallacies false viewpoints of circular logic* so i congratulate you

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(June 21, 2010 at 7:57 am)Ace Wrote:

(June 21, 2010 at 6:15 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: plz guys am confirming again that this is not the reasons that made me believe. thats just the first stage i passed through which am interested to know from you wether there was answers for these questions in your opinion and some of these questions i found answers for later but i just want to know how you guys think from an atheist point of view

I'm going to give you a quick answer. You lack knowledge and understanding and so have opted for the god of the gaps argument. You don't know this_____so you fill in the missing information with "goddidit".
It's not knowledge, it's guess work. Saying goddidit is not differant from saying santadidit.
There is no evidence to suggest that some supernatural being was behind it but despite lack of supporting evidence, you still opt for that conclusion.
Just because we don't know something doesn't automaticly mean goddidit.

Saying goddidit only raises more questions.

To simplify the god of gaps, think of it this way, every-time you fill a gap with a Goddidit substitute goddidit with Magic, and then think "does magic exist?"

I'm impressed with you guys. I took one look at the first post and it was filled with far too much FAIL for me to make a response. I mean, look at this:

"there is a system in everything (if we came by chance nothing will be in a system everything will happen by chance)"

WTF does that even mean? Forget the non-sequitur in the final part; I can't understand the first bit.