-faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.......

(September 26, 2014 at 10:20 pm)popeyespappy Wrote: The chart I listed shows the results of dividing the number of male bees by the number of female bees listed on the chart in the link you provided. For example 2/1=2 and 13/8=1.625. Neither of which is equal to the golden ration of 1.618.

When someone claims a mathematical formula in support of a claim it usually helps if the math supports the claim. In this case it does not.

The Fibonacci series approches the golden ratio. It technically never equels the golden ratio.

Tonus already pointed out that Huggy is commiting the sharpshooter falacy. He is seeing paterns where we wants to. What he is missing is that there are lots of patterns in nature that have nothing to do with the Fibonacci sequence or the golden ratio. For example, decays have an exponential distributions, populations statistics are gaussian, resonances are Cauchy distributions, earthquakes rates follow a power law, etc...

(September 26, 2014 at 8:38 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(September 26, 2014 at 8:21 pm)pocaracas Wrote: I gave you a little sketch of the disciplines you must understand prior to realizing that you can answer that question.
Are you seriously expecting me to lecture you on QM, Chemistry, biochemistry and standard biology? And then show you how each plays with the other? How each is a cruder model for the previous... cruder to allow for a different observational scale.
Down deep, all biology is biochemistry... all biochemistry is just chemistry... all chemistry is just Quantum mechanics.... all QM is just QCD.... all QCD is... I don't know. It doesn't matter.
This answers your question... in a very very very crude fashion.
More depth requires research on your part., so go on... chop chop... come back in 4 years when you've done all the required research. Then, if you still have the same question, we can talk.

more dodge tactics I see, either you can explain it or you can't.. me doing research has no bearing on your explanation.

I could explain it, given enough time and patience... both commodities that I have little of to offer you.
These disciplines are easily available to you, if have an inkling of how google works, so you could perform your own research on them and then come back with your new found wealth of information and knowledge.
I even gave you their common names, to make it easier for you.
Now, I'm going to give you the wiki pages on those disciplpines... you can follow the citations by yourself.
I'm leaving out QCD, as it would be a bit overkill... But feel free to go research that as well!

Quantum Mechanics

Chemistry

Biochemistry

Biology

Bee


Instead of educating yourself, you expect me to educate you, while you waddle in your own delusion, assured that the discovery of a particular pattern in a few specific biological systems is evidence that those systems have been guided by some invisible/forceless/energyless entity.

Humans, huh?...

(September 26, 2014 at 7:18 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(September 26, 2014 at 6:50 pm)Natachan Wrote: No, it doesn't. How does the existence and labeling of a pattern indicate an intelligent designer? You haven't addressed this point. This pattern is simply a label we use, we made it up to explain certain phenomena. It is completely arbitrary to how we perceive the universe. So how does it indicate an intelligent designer?

We are led to believe that the creation of the universe and everything in it, are nothing more than a chain of random events, but yet upon closer examination we see the same sequence of numbers (or ratio) in the shape of the universe, down to shape of DNA, yet were supposed to believe this is random? just a matter of physics?

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I went out last night.

Yes. Certain things happen in certain ratios simply due to the nature of matter. It also appears the same because, as I pointed out, it is convenient for us to use those labels because that is how we conceptualize the universe. There might be other systems of mathematics which rely on variables we don't understand in which case these ratios would be meaningless. But we don't conceptualize the universe that way.

Quote:Then explain why the honey bee reproduces in the same sequence? and why the ratio of the females divided by the males come out to the same ratio? reproduction has nothing to do with physics.

I'm not a biologist, so I can't give you a full answer. I will instead say (again) that we are pattern seeking animals and we tend to see things in that way. From what comments you've posted on this seems to just be a simple exponential growth curve, which seems fairly reasonable. Again, we are pattern seekers, this doesn't indicate an intelligent designer, nearly that we observe the universe in a specific way.

Now if I was a timeless entity I would create a mathematical system that relies on a variable in time. All my physics and number systems would rely on a system that worked in this fashion.

(September 26, 2014 at 7:18 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: We are led to believe that the creation of the universe and everything in it, are nothing more than a chain of random events, but yet upon closer examination we see the same sequence of numbers (or ratio) in the shape of the universe, down to shape of DNA, yet were supposed to believe this is random? just a matter of physics?

There is pattern in random. Those of us in the sane world do not think random implies unpredictably chaotic. Why do you?

You point out regularity in the world and insist this points to a creator. Why do you assume regularity can only arise as the result of an intentional being? That is a whopper of an assumption and truly baseless.

There is regularity in the world because the macro world is built up from common building blocks in the micro world. These blocks just do go together in certain ways and not in others. This is just the world as we find it.

We can sit here and play what-if. What if something created those micro blocks just that way so that the macro world would work out the way it has. But our ability to play what-if is essentially masterbatory. No shame. I mean if it feels good, go for it man. Just don't assume everyone you meet online is going to want join a circle jerk with you.

In what way does the existence of patterns in nature indicate design?

Are you suggesting that if things weren't designed that there would be no such patterns? Because that seems clearly false.

(September 27, 2014 at 2:56 pm)rasetsu Wrote: In what way does the existence of patterns in nature indicate design?

Are you suggesting that if things weren't designed that there would be no such patterns? Because that seems clearly false.

Pattern is synonymous with design...

(September 27, 2014 at 8:41 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(September 27, 2014 at 2:56 pm)rasetsu Wrote: In what way does the existence of patterns in nature indicate design?

Are you suggesting that if things weren't designed that there would be no such patterns? Because that seems clearly false.

Pattern is synonymous with design...

Hardly. Put a bunch of rocks from marble to size to grains of sand into a glass bowl. Shake. What happens? Did you sort the rocks by design? Lay a sheet of paper over a magnet, shake metal filings over over the sheet. What happens? Did you design the shape the filing fell into?

Natural things like gravity wells, rivers, storms, etc. make patterns all the time. Natural selection makes it's own patterns.

(September 27, 2014 at 8:41 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(September 27, 2014 at 2:56 pm)rasetsu Wrote: In what way does the existence of patterns in nature indicate design?

Are you suggesting that if things weren't designed that there would be no such patterns? Because that seems clearly false.

Pattern is synonymous with design...

Nice assertion. I challenge you to prove it.

(September 27, 2014 at 9:17 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(September 27, 2014 at 8:41 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Pattern is synonymous with design...

Hardly. Put a bunch of rocks from marble to size to grains of sand into a glass bowl. Shake. What happens? Did you sort the rocks by design? Lay a sheet of paper over a magnet, shake metal filings over over the sheet. What happens? Did you design the shape the filing fell into?

Natural things like gravity wells, rivers, storms, etc. make patterns all the time. Natural selection makes it's own patterns.

were not talking about random patterns, were talking the same pattern being repeated.

snowflakes form patterns but are never the same.

---

(September 27, 2014 at 9:20 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(September 27, 2014 at 8:41 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Pattern is synonymous with design...

Nice assertion. I challenge you to prove it.

Not an assertion, design IS the synonym of pattern

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pattern

pat·tern
noun \ˈpa-tərn\

: a repeated form or design especially that is used to decorate something

: the regular and repeated way in which something happens or is done

: something that happens in a regular and repeated way

Synonyms
design, figure, motif, motive

there's your proof..