Not really an accurate description of his logic - since some other poor schmuck is paying with his life. If the debt was owed to himself, and the payment was himself - no crucifixion would be required...and I'd be fucking clapping.

(September 28, 2014 at 9:52 am)Rhythm Wrote: Not really an accurate description of his logic - since some other poor schmuck is paying with his life. If the debt was owed to himself, and the payment was himself - no crucifixion would be required...and I'd be fucking clapping.

If God demands the payment, and it is God who offers himself as the payment (yes, really a poor schmuck whom Christians worship as God), then it's an entirely accurate description.

---

Also, you're right that crucifixion would not be required... which makes his faith all the more ridiculous and idiotic (I mean "mysterious").

(September 28, 2014 at 2:38 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(September 27, 2014 at 5:34 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: But, why am I being offered it (grace/salvation) at all? If God made mankind 'perfect,' why did he need to send a savior to redeem us? What am I being saved from, and what am I rejecting? I'm a former Christian, but my reason for departing it had to do with the fallacy of believing that I deserve basically a place called hell, if I choose to 'reject' God's 'free gift' of salvation. Why would God create such a puzzling format for mankind to follow?

You are being offered salvation because you're not perfect and to have it would let you live like you were. Forgiven for your flaws.
You are being saved from your life draining actions. You're rejecting a better life.
Yes, if you reject the gift then you choose to suffer. God doesn't make you suffer. You do. By choice. You make the most of your limitations.

Immediately after Deidre32 asked about "god making us perfect" you claim we need forgiving for our "flaws." Can you give us another example where a perfect omnipotent creator is just in punishing his handiwork for its defective qualities that displease him?

I want a third option. I do not want to go to your god's hell and I certainly don't want to go to your god's heaven, as it does not appeal to me in the least. I just want your god to leave me alone. Please explain why your god is such a belligerent egotistical control freak as to simply not allow us to live and die in peace.

(September 28, 2014 at 9:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(September 28, 2014 at 8:11 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: A perfect Carpenter, by definition, doesn't build a crooked cabinet. The fact that God allegedly made imperfect man is evidence of this putative god's iperfection at the very least.

What if perfection is in the imperfection? What if imperfection was the deliberate design?

If imperfection was the deliberate design, then you worship a deity who planned to doom all men to death for one applebite; you worship a deity who created men knowing full well that he'd be torturing the vast majority of them for eternity.

Is that really a position you wish to defend? What a slender reed you're using to rescue such robust claims.

(September 28, 2014 at 9:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Reality is, it's what we have to deal with.

Tell us what you know about reality.

Yes Rhythm, I'm saying all of your points are about injustice which then infers immorality. "Bruce should sacrifice his life to pay my parking ticket. This is clearly unjust, therefore all sacrifice must be immoral".

You refuse to entertain a relevant example, which would be just. " Bruce could sacrifice a small portion of his hard earned wages of toil and pay my parking ticket ".

The salvation story is of course much more strongly weighted in favour of the recipient.

These arguments are solid and so far only hilariously characterised by your ridiculous attempts at what I can only assume to be humour. Serious contention we have yet to see.

I would agree that the cosmos is immoral from a disbelieving standpoint. I've said it many times. Disbelief involves accepting a poor hand.

I'm not asking you about justice, I've been asking you about morality. Perhaps it -is- unjust to pay for your parking tickets with the life of another (or your flaws with the life of another) but is it -immoral-? Even if it were legal, even if it were just - we could still decide that it was immoral. Or, at least, I could make that distinction.

More like, "Bruce should sacrifice his life for my parking tickets - this is clearly immoral, and therefore acceptance of such payment is immoral."

It's a relevant example. So try to address it, now that you have no excuse left to you.

That something is to my benefit does not make it right or okay. Many terrible things can be(and apparently have been) done for my benefit. I think it's telling that you keep referring to how much we need it, and how much to our benefit it is. Fucking sick man.

"The cosmos"..lol, btw, is not "immoral from a disbelieving standpoint" - thats just garbage. It's just the cosmos. Rocks aren't subject to morality. There are no evil rocks....lol. No one offered it, so you aren't agreeing with anyone.

(September 28, 2014 at 10:09 am)Brakeman Wrote:

(September 28, 2014 at 2:38 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You are being offered salvation because you're not perfect and to have it would let you live like you were. Forgiven for your flaws.
You are being saved from your life draining actions. You're rejecting a better life.
Yes, if you reject the gift then you choose to suffer. God doesn't make you suffer. You do. By choice. You make the most of your limitations.

Immediately after Deidre32 asked about "god making us perfect" you claim we need forgiving for our "flaws." Can you give us another example where a perfect omnipotent creator is just in punishing his handiwork for its defective qualities that displease him?

I want a third option. I do not want to go to your god's hell and I certainly don't want to go to your god's heaven, as it does not appeal to me in the least. I just want your god to leave me alone. Please explain why your god is such a belligerent egotistical control freak as to simply not allow us to live and die in peace.

You don't appear to be absorbing what you're reading B. God isn't punishing you, you are punishing you. The solution is there, you reject it.

This reality is what you have to deal with. Here we're calling it 'God'. Call it what you like. It's pointless fighting the dogma. It's like watching someone hit themselves in the face repeatedly with a hammer.

If we deserve the punishment, then that's the right thing to do. Fobbing it off on someone else would be......immoral.

(September 28, 2014 at 10:12 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: If imperfection was the deliberate design, then you worship a deity who planned to doom all men to death for one applebite; you worship a deity who created men knowing full well that he'd be torturing the vast majority of them for eternity.

Is that really a position you wish to defend? What a slender reed you're using to rescue such robust claims.

You're a bit of a non literalist literalist aren't you. I'm fine double guessing God. He created a perfect being where love is paramount. Love cannot exist in a vacuum, so to create this reality at all not love would have to be included.

Gods purpose for us all is to achieve fulfillment. Us torturing ourselves in hell, both present and post mortem, is God showing his love for us. If love didn't require justice then it would be worthless.

(September 28, 2014 at 10:12 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2014 at 9:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Reality is, it's what we have to deal with.

Tell us what you know about reality.

Wow wierd question lol. Can you be more specific please?

(September 28, 2014 at 10:21 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You don't appear to be absorbing what you're reading B. God isn't punishing you, you are punishing you. The solution is there, you reject it.

WOw you are thick.. I don't want any punishment. I want god to leave me alone, that is all.
No one chooses a punishment, it is forced upon them by someone else in power. If I stub my toe, it is not any definition of punishment without it being forced upon me.

Quote:pun·ish·ment
ˈpəniSHmənt/
noun
noun: punishment

the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.

See, it requires a second party to inflict or impose. Otherwise it is not punishment. I ask god not to be that other party, I ask him to leave me the fuck alone.