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October 2, 2014 at 1:52 pm (This post was last modified: October 2, 2014 at 1:54 pm by Chas.)
(October 2, 2014 at 1:38 pm)Losty Wrote:
(October 2, 2014 at 11:31 am)Chas Wrote: No, you are not getting it. At some point during pregnancy, the fetus becomes viable. At that point it is another human being and has rights, too.
Is it OK for a woman to abort 1 hour before delivery? 1 day? 1 week?
When?
I don't think any forms of abortion should be illegal. I think women should be strongly encouraged to give birth to viable fetuses so long as their life is not in danger. I do not, however, believe that they should be forced to do so.
Quote:That is absurd 'logic'. The fetus is not making a choice. It is helpless and not responsible for even its existence.
Is your argument that a fetus may be aborted right up to the moment of birth?
Should be, no. May be, yes.
I will say for I think the millionth time (not to you my sweet chas but just in general), there's no point in discussing late term abortions. Less than 2% of abortions are late term. If we had real sex education and easy affordable access to birth control and early term abortions, late term abortions would be almost completely eliminated outside of emergency situations where the mother's life is at risk.
I'm not actually arguing about late-term abortion, per se. I know that they are not common and are generally medically indicated.
I am trying to find a rational, humane, ethical basis for abortion law.
The facts are:
When a baby is born, that baby is legally a person.
Before that, there is a point where the fetus is viable. It is difficult to argue that that is not a person.
Somewhat earlier, there is a point where the fetus has a complete nervous system and brain. That fetus can feel/experience pain.
Earlier than that, it is difficult to say that the fetus is a person.
We can make the boundary for personhood anywhere from conception to birth. Let's choose a rational, humane, ethical one.
(October 2, 2014 at 1:40 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Sure, but not "the right to life at the involuntary expense of another human's body"
Except it isn't involuntary. Not at 7+ months.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
October 2, 2014 at 1:59 pm (This post was last modified: October 2, 2014 at 1:59 pm by rexbeccarox.)
(October 2, 2014 at 1:52 pm)Chas Wrote:
(October 2, 2014 at 1:38 pm)Losty Wrote: I don't think any forms of abortion should be illegal. I think women should be strongly encouraged to give birth to viable fetuses so long as their life is not in danger. I do not, however, believe that they should be forced to do so.
Should be, no. May be, yes.
I will say for I think the millionth time (not to you my sweet chas but just in general), there's no point in discussing late term abortions. Less than 2% of abortions are late term. If we had real sex education and easy affordable access to birth control and early term abortions, late term abortions would be almost completely eliminated outside of emergency situations where the mother's life is at risk.
I'm not actually arguing about late-term abortion, per se. I know that they are not common and are generally medically indicated.
I am trying to find a rational, humane, ethical basis for abortion law.
The facts are:
When a baby is born, that baby is legally a person.
Before that, there is a point where the fetus is viable. It is difficult to argue that that is not a person.
Somewhat earlier, there is a point where the fetus has a complete nervous system and brain. That fetus can feel/experience pain.
Earlier than that, it is difficult to say that the fetus is a person.
We can make the boundary for personhood anywhere from conception to birth. Let's choose a rational, humane, ethical one.
(October 2, 2014 at 1:40 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Sure, but not "the right to life at the involuntary expense of another human's body"
Except it isn't involuntary. Not at 7+ months.
Or, Chas, how about it's none of your business? My womb is mine. Not something society has any right to even talk about, let alone decide what happens to it. "We" don't get to decide boundaries for my uterus or anyone else's.
(October 2, 2014 at 1:29 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote: Well. You said she had had 8 months already to abort, so she should just put up and shut up in a way after that.
So I'd like to know if it matters to you if she was pressurised into keeping the baby during said 8 months.
I'm sure it matters to her.
But that is not relevant to what we as a society determine are the boundaries of human life and the balance of rights.
And that's the thing really. How do we discuss any of these things as a society? Or as just being you and me? Is it okay to incorporate the cultural reality women live in in any way?
October 2, 2014 at 2:16 pm (This post was last modified: October 2, 2014 at 2:17 pm by Chas.)
(October 2, 2014 at 1:59 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:
(October 2, 2014 at 1:52 pm)Chas Wrote: I'm not actually arguing about late-term abortion, per se. I know that they are not common and are generally medically indicated.
I am trying to find a rational, humane, ethical basis for abortion law.
The facts are:
When a baby is born, that baby is legally a person.
Before that, there is a point where the fetus is viable. It is difficult to argue that that is not a person.
Somewhat earlier, there is a point where the fetus has a complete nervous system and brain. That fetus can feel/experience pain.
Earlier than that, it is difficult to say that the fetus is a person.
We can make the boundary for personhood anywhere from conception to birth. Let's choose a rational, humane, ethical one. Except it isn't involuntary. Not at 7+ months.
Or, Chas, how about it's none of your business? My womb is mine. Not something society has any right to even talk about, let alone decide what happens to it. "We" don't get to decide boundaries for my uterus or anyone else's.
Then you are OK with aborting an 8 month, 30 day old fetus, right?
(October 2, 2014 at 2:09 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote:
(October 2, 2014 at 1:39 pm)Chas Wrote: I'm sure it matters to her.
But that is not relevant to what we as a society determine are the boundaries of human life and the balance of rights.
And that's the thing really. How do we discuss any of these things as a society? Or as just being you and me? Is it okay to incorporate the cultural reality women live in in any way?
We discuss them as we are now. And of course we have to take reality into account.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
Or, Chas, how about it's none of your business? My womb is mine. Not something society has any right to even talk about, let alone decide what happens to it. "We" don't get to decide boundaries for my uterus or anyone else's.
Then you are OK with aborting an 8 month, 30 day old fetus, right?
It doesn't matter if I'm ok with it. It's not my uterus.
Well..no, you are time-limiting it. You're saying after a certain amount of time, ostensibly when the fetus becomes viable, she loses that right to chose.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
