Somehow I feel that I would act more responsibly towards -thinking, feeling, loving- beings I create than retardgod did.

(October 9, 2014 at 1:28 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Lek, preaching at us isn't going to make us believe you any more readily. Prove your god first, then we can talk.

My rant wasn't about proving God to you. You guys don't believe in God, so we we're just having a hypothetical discussion about the morality of God. Actually my comments are more practically aimed at christians who want to think that the God of the old testament is somehow a different being than the God of the new testament. This was brought on by posters who stated that christians don't read the old testament or they try to talk around it. My other thought was that we, as christians, accept God as perfectly loving and just.

Claiming that Jesus is Yahweh actually makes things worse. Not better. It makes all his "do unto others" and "turn the other cheek" stuff look very insincere in the face of the first two thirds of the bible. At least if he was a different guy he would be a little better, even if he still serves Yahweh. I could relate to someone who wants to be a good person, but is still forced to brown nose a guy who is obsessed with himself and kills people who aren't equally obsessed with him. Though Jesus still says things that are just as bad as Yahweh.

I'm pretty firm on the idea of them being separate, mostly because Jesus acts like he's a separate guy. Does he ever act like he's one and the same guy, in between saying he's not good because only god is good, or let your will, not my will be done?

(October 9, 2014 at 4:19 pm)Lek Wrote: My other thought was that we, as christians, accept God as perfectly loving and just.

No, you don't accept that. You define god as perfectly loving and just, and then either retrofit the atrocities, the unloving and unjust things in his back catalogue, into that definition by hook or by crook.

Or you just ignore them. Because god is all loving and just, therefore everything he did must be too!

But a sane person can recognize the difference between a justified claim, and definitional fiat.

That is the question. If god is all loving Lek, why does he instigate and participate in atrocities.

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How is it suddenly just if it's god?

(October 9, 2014 at 6:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote: That is the question. If god is all loving Lek, why does he instigate and participate in atrocities.

How is it suddenly just if it's god?

Yeah. I saw that video before. The difference is that God didn't just create a bad situation, put us there, then decide to save us from it. He created a good situation, put us there, then we blew it for ourselves. He then offered his son to fulfill the justice that we were to receive and he's offering the good situation back to us. Although we can have it back there are still consequences that we must suffer, like pain, suffering, and death. Is it ok for God to make us die from cancer, get smashed by a bus, or some other gory death? I know you think he should be a nice guy and end all this suffering stuff right now. God created it all and he holds the power over life and death. He can make the rules and the punishment for breaking them. I don't know his mind. I'm just happy he gave me a second chance and I'm taking it. God's not forcing anybody.

How do you know?

(October 9, 2014 at 7:10 pm)Lek Wrote: Yeah. I saw that video before. The difference is that God didn't just create a bad situation, put us there, then decide to save us from it. He created a good situation, put us there, then we blew it for ourselves. He then offered his son to fulfill the justice that we were to receive and he's offering the good situation back to us. Although we can have it back there are still consequences that we must suffer, like pain, suffering, and death. Is it ok for God to make us die from cancer, get smashed by a bus, or some other gory death? I know you think he should be a nice guy and end all this suffering stuff right now. God created it all and he holds the power over life and death. He can make the rules and the punishment for breaking them. I don't know his mind. I'm just happy he gave me a second chance and I'm taking it. God's not forcing anybody.

See, this is what I mean. Retrofitting bad things into good things, rather than examining them honestly.

Also, shockingly, you're only addressing a small fraction of the point: the question you were asked was why does god instigate and participate in atrocities, and yet for some reason you opted to discuss human problems instead, despite the fact that this is clearly not what's on the table.

Do you deny that, within the context of the bible, god flooded the world and killed everyone on it? Do you deny the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Are you familiar with the civilizations destroyed at god's command? Are not those actions directly caused by god, and if so, aren't those very obviously the actual things you were being asked about?

You do this a lot, Lek, and I have to wonder why: why do you avoid questions with the same old transparent dodges, like that "I know you think god should X and Y" shit, that I've called you on before? Why is honestly approaching the actual question you've been asked so scary?

(October 9, 2014 at 7:40 pm)Esquilax Wrote: See, this is what I mean. Retrofitting bad things into good things, rather than examining them honestly.

Also, shockingly, you're only addressing a small fraction of the point: the question you were asked was why does god instigate and participate in atrocities, and yet for some reason you opted to discuss human problems instead, despite the fact that this is clearly not what's on the table.


Do you deny that, within the context of the bible, god flooded the world and killed everyone on it? Do you deny the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Are you familiar with the civilizations destroyed at god's command? Are not those actions directly caused by god, and if so, aren't those very obviously the actual things you were being asked about?

You do this a lot, Lek, and I have to wonder why: why do you avoid questions with the same old transparent dodges, like that "I know you think god should X and Y" shit, that I've called you on before? Why is honestly approaching the actual question you've been asked so scary?

Nothing scary at all. I did address these questions. If man had not sinned, none of these atrocities would have happened. We would be as happy as Adam and Eve were originally. We could say that God makes everything happen, but if we have a free will, then we make some things happen.[/quote] I never denied the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. If I accept the bible then I accept these events. What I will say is that I don't know the mind of God. I can tell you they wouldn't haven't happened if we had not sinned, but I don't know what what was happening in God's mind at the time. People don't get too excited if God makes someone die after suffering for years with a disease, or makes someone get run over by a bus. But if a bunch of evil people get killed by fire and brimstone in Sodom, then God is causing an atrocity.

How do you know that that is true?