Horrible things in the bible

[Jenny A]

That is the question. If god is all loving Lek, why does he instigate and participate in atrocities.

How is it suddenly just if it's god?

Yeah. I saw that video before. The difference is that God didn't just create a bad situation, put us there, then decide to save us from it. He created a good situation, put us there, then we blew it for ourselves.

No according to the Bible he created Adam and Eve and they blew it. Since when is it just to punish people for the crimes of their parents let alone their remote ancestors? Or do you believe that all people commit crimes so heinous that eternal torture is just? Frankly, I don't even believe Stalin or Hitler deserve eternal torment. Eternity is as they say a very long time.

He then offered his son to fulfill the justice that we were to receive and he's offering the good situation back to us.

Find me any analogous situation where you would say anything even remotely like sacrificing your own son to get someone else out of prison was a just thing.

God created it all and he holds the power over life and death. He can make the rules and the punishment for breaking them.

Precisely. According to you and the Bible he made the rules. So it is just like the video. Hmmm?

I don't know his mind. I'm just happy he gave me a second chance and I'm taking it. God's not forcing anybody.

And the U.S. government isn't forcing you to pay taxes, it's just that they'll lock you up if you don't. Right? Except that they will let you out of prison eventually and they probably won't torture you.

[Esquilax]

Nothing scary at all. I did address these questions. If man had not sinned, none of these atrocities would have happened. We would be as happy as Adam and Eve were originally. We could say that God makes everything happen, but if we have a free will, then we make some things happen. I never denied the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. If I accept the bible then I accept these events. What I will say is that I don't know the mind of God. I can tell you they wouldn't haven't happened if we had not sinned, but I don't know what what was happening in God's mind at the time. People don't get too excited if God makes someone die after suffering for years with a disease, or makes someone get run over by a bus. But if a bunch of evil people get killed by fire and brimstone in Sodom, then God is causing an atrocity.

Yeah, the Argument from Undefined Possible Reasons doesn't fly. If you wouldn't let a serial killer off the hook based on "I don't know the mind of serial killers, maybe he had good reasons," then I won't accept you letting god off on the same excuse.

I also have problems with this idea that execution for sin- for anything is at all justifiable. You're not going to convince me that the death penalty is morally correct to begin with, but if god is going to punish all the sinners with hell anyway, why did he need to heap additional punishment onto these specific groups of people now?

Once again, this is just you spinning bad things as good things, because you've presupposed god as being good, rather than honestly assessing the situation.

[Lek]

How do you know that that is true?

I believe the testimonies of those who came before me and gave their lives for the faith.

[Esquilax]

How do you know that that is true?

I believe the testimonies of those who came before me and gave their lives for the faith.

Oh, I didn't know you were a muslim. And a jew. And a hindu. And a follower of the greek pantheon.

Must be hard, believing all those mutually exclusive testimonies. How do you handle the cognitive dissonance?

[Aractus]

Lek- You don't have testimony of people who witnessed the events described in Genesis, or for that matter Exodus, or from people who wrote it down in a contemporary period. Thus, why do you believe what Genesis and Exodus say?

[Lek]

No according to the Bible he created Adam and Eve and they blew it. Since when is it just to punish people for the crimes of their parents let alone their remote ancestors? Or do you believe that all people commit crimes so heinous that eternal torture is just? Frankly, I don't even believe Stalin or Hitler deserve eternal torment. Eternity is as they say a very long time.

When we sin we disobey just as Adam and Eve did. I told you before that I'm not convinced that the bible teaches eternal torment. If it is true, I'll accept it, but it seems a bit much.

Find me any analogous situation where you would say anything even remotely like sacrificing your own son to get someone else out of prison was a just thing.

How about this? What if I stole $1,000 from you and you pressed charges? Then my brother came to you and offered to pay you the $1,000 if you would drop the charges and you agreed?

Precisely. According to you and the Bible he made the rules. So it is just like the video. Hmmm?

He made the rules, but he didn't cause us to break them.

And the U.S. government isn't forcing you to pay taxes, it's just that they'll lock you up if you don't. Right? Except that they will let you out of prison eventually and they probably won't torture you.

Yeah. The US government is much nicer than God. Of course, Al Capone had to die to get out of prison for not paying taxes.

---

Lek- You don't have testimony of people who witnessed the events described in Genesis, or for that matter Exodus, or from people who wrote it down in a contemporary period. Thus, why do you believe what Genesis and Exodus say?

I don't have testimony from living witnesses that King Henry VIII existed, but I believe he existed. I have testimonies from people I know well of how their lives have been changed and I can see it in their lives.

---

Oh, I didn't know you were a muslim. And a jew. And a hindu. And a follower of the greek pantheon.

Must be hard, believing all those mutually exclusive testimonies. How do you handle the cognitive dissonance?

I don't accept their beliefs. I must choose one over the others. I choose to accept christianity. I've never done any scientific experiments to prove my beliefs are true, so I guess it doesn't fly with you.

[Jenny A]

No according to the Bible he created Adam and Eve and they blew it. Since when is it just to punish people for the crimes of their parents let alone their remote ancestors? Or do you believe that all people commit crimes so heinous that eternal torture is just? Frankly, I don't even believe Stalin or Hitler deserve eternal torment. Eternity is as they say a very long time.

When we sin we disobey just as Adam and Eve did. I told you before that I'm not convinced that the bible teaches eternal torment. If it is true, I'll accept it, but it seems a bit much.

You may accept the idea of eternal torment for any crime, let alone the ones most people commit, but that doesn't make it remotely just.

Find me any analogous situation where you would say anything even remotely like sacrificing your own son to get someone else out of prison was a just thing.

How about this? What if I stole $1,000 from you and you pressed charges? Then my brother came to you and offered to pay you the $1,000 if you would drop the charges and you agreed?

It's not analogous. If you father said he'd fine your brother the $1000 and give it to me it'd be more like it. But we aren't talking about commuting a fine here are we? We are talking about something rather worse than the death penalty. There are good reasons why a court would let you pay your brother's fine, but not let you serve his prison term for him.

Precisely. According to you and the Bible he made the rules. So it is just like the video. Hmmm?

He made the rules, but he didn't cause us to break them.

But are the rules just? They don't appear remotely just to me.

And the U.S. government isn't forcing you to pay taxes, it's just that they'll lock you up if you don't. Right? Except that they will let you out of prison eventually and they probably won't torture you.

Yeah. The US government is much nicer than God. Of course, Al Capone had to die to get out of prison for not paying taxes.

---- It isn't saying it gave you free will to not pay your taxes. Do you think Al Capone deserved what he got? I do. And they didn't torture him at all let alone for eternity.

Suppose a man leads an otherwise blameless life yet believes in Shiva not Jesus. Is an eternal sentence just?


-----And if you are going to quote me, please quote me. K?

[Esquilax]

When we sin we disobey just as Adam and Eve did. I told you before that I'm not convinced that the bible teaches eternal torment. If it is true, I'll accept it, but it seems a bit much.

So is it possible for a person not to sin? If so, I guess christianity is irrelevant. If not, then I guess Adam and Eve were absolutely bound to sin from the outset and the free will excuse, plus their and our responsibility for sin, go completely out the window.

And if Adam and Eve could not sin, then I guess the actual content of the sin is completely meaningless next to the label, sin, and hence there's no moral component to sin at all.

I don't accept their beliefs. I must choose one over the others. I choose to accept christianity. I've never done any scientific experiments to prove my beliefs are true, so I guess it doesn't fly with you.

First of all, don't strawman me, with that science stuff.

Second of all, don't say you believe in christianity because of the testimony involved if testimony isn't what is actually convincing you. Just be honest and say what really makes you believe.

Just say "I believe because of special pleading."

[Lek]

='Jenny A' pid='770598' dateline='1412905825']

Don't ask me what I'm doing wrong here, but THESE QUOTES ARE ALL FROM JENNY A!

You may accept the idea of eternal torment for any crime, let alone the ones most people commit, but that doesn't make it remotely just.

Ok. You and I feel differently. I want to say that hell is not eternal, but I'm still in the process of studying everything I can find in the bible relating to the issue and I can't seem to come final agreement in my own mind. Throughout history, there's been christians with opinions on both sides.

It's not analogous. If you father said he'd fine your brother the $1000 and give it to me it'd be more like it. But we aren't talking about commuting a fine here are we? We are talking about something rather worse than the death penalty. There are good reasons why a court would let you pay your brother's fine, but not let you serve his prison term for him.

So what? Why do we have to have an analogy? God the Father accepted the sacrifice of his son as atonement for us. That's all that matters.

But are the rules just? They don't appear remotely just to me.

Again, we have different opinions.

---- It isn't saying it gave you free will to not pay your taxes. Do you think Al Capone deserved what he got? I do. And they didn't torture him at all let alone for eternity.

We still have the freedom not to pay our taxes, but if we don't, we pay the penalty.

Suppose a man leads an otherwise blameless life yet believes in Shiva not Jesus. Is an eternal sentence just?

Depends on whether or not he was able to hear and understand the gospel. I believe the one who truly seeks God will find him. He may not know how to say "Jesus", but he will know his own relationship with God and will follow him as best he knows.

-----And if you are going to quote me, please quote me. K?

Sorry Jenny. Sometimes I mess up on deleting stuff[/php] and quote marks.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm not pulling and bait and switch. I was responding to remarks about christians. I still maintain that our view of all this stuff that has been brought out about God's actions is based on different perspectives.

Of course it is. You seem to think that might makes right -- that because your god does it, it is good.

God created all of us with the purpose of being with him for eternity.

No, he didn't. He knew ahead of time that many of us would reject him, and indeed, we are powerless to go against his plan -- his foreknowledge of human rejection, coupled with his insistence on going forward anyway with Hell, means that your god deliberately damned people to Hell for the sinful human nature that he himself created in them.

This world is all messed up and we all die one way or another.

This is because your god allegedly issued a death sentence for every human being in history, because the first two were disobedient.

If God would reach down and burn up all these ISIS guys who are causing atrocities would you complain? No matter how we die, anyone who seeks after God will spend eternity with him. That's what we live for. I'm sorry that you don't like what he's done over time, but he's the creator and he can deal with his creation as he chooses.

Yep, might makes right -- the final appeal of the amoral.

He sacrificed his son to atone for the sins of all of us because he loves us all.

I should think that love entails forgiveness. Even Paul, in Corinthians, says as much.

He made it possible for everyone to have eternal life with him--even those he violently wiped out. Since the sin of Adam, the world is not a nice place, but he's going to take us out of it.

Even before the Fall, the world had talking snakes and fallen angels wandering around.

Gosh, I wonder who put them there?

I'm not going to claim to be a christian and then pretend that the old testament doesn't exist. You've chosen not to believe in him, and that's your prerogative, but if I claim to be a christian, I must accept the God of the old testament as well as the God of the new testament. We must take God as a whole. That's just the way it is.

I take it, then, that you're fine with executing gays? Perhaps you think that women should be forced to marry their rapists?

Those were the actions of a loving and just God who wants all to be saved. People are quick to blame God, but won't take any blame upon themselves. Actions have major consequences with God, but the reward is great. You all need also need to read the new testament and view the whole story and then make your judgments.

I don't blame imaginary beings for anything; I assume responsibility for my failings. But I note how quick you are to exonerate this god of any wrong-doing even as the very book inspired by him contains a catalogue of crime unmatched by any human being who has ever lived.

Also, I, and most of us here, have read the New Testament. The god in that book is an evil asshole as well -- he just has better PR.