I'm disturbed

(October 6, 2014 at 4:22 pm)C4RM5 Wrote:

(October 6, 2014 at 4:20 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Without that first gasp of breath, the fetus is unensouled and NOT a living human being.

Willful ignorance of Scripture is blasphemy.

Where does it say this I may ask.

Since I can't see where anyone has answered this for you & you obviously haven't read your holy book very well, here you go.

Quote:Many people think that a human being is created at the time of conception but this belief is not supported by the bible. The fact that a living sperm penetrates a living ovum resulting in the formation of a living fetus does not mean that the fetus is a living human being. According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.

After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

Again, to quote Ezekiel 37:5&6, “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

In Exodus 21:22 it states that if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, he shall be fined; however, if the woman dies then he will be put to death. It should be apparent from this that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is nothing more than a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense.

Original here

(October 13, 2014 at 1:29 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: Okay here you are,
Psalm 139:13-16
Genesis 1:27
Luke 18:16
Jeremiah 1:5
Exodus 21:22
Galatians 1:15

Nope these don't fly:

In Psalm 139 the poet celebrates that God made him in the womb: "thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb." It does not say that "I was a person before birth." We know humans form in the womb.

Genesis 1:27 is rather famous but it has nothing to do with fetuses whatsoever: "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. "

Luke 18:16 Another well known verse: "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." Yeah Jesus says he likes kids. Where's the fetus part?

Jeremiah 1:5 is the first one that comes even remotely close. It says that god, who is omniscient chose Jeremiah as his prophet before Jeremiah was conceived: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” That says to me that god is supposed to know who will be born before they are conceived. It does not say that they are people for purposes of thou shalt not kill before they are born.

Galatians 1:15 "But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to[c] me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus."

This is Paul talking about how god chose him before he was born. It's just like Jeremiah in this and has nothing to do with whether fetus's are persons.

Wait a minute! This one says that god does not consider fetuses people. But you do have to read the verse in context. It's one I cited in my post above:

Exodus 21:22-24 "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

From it we learn: 1) It's wrong to hit a woman hard enough to cause her to miscarry and that those who do so should compensate the woman's husband for the loss of the fetus with money (hard to disagree with that except that it's the woman who ought to be compensated don't you think?); 2) that if you kill a woman you pay with your life; 3) if you permanently injure a woman you should be subject to a similar injury. Notice the big difference between how god treats the two cases. The woman is a person the fetus is not.

So you think it is right to have abortions because you quoted a book you don't think is accurate.

(October 13, 2014 at 2:10 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: So you think it is right to have abortions because you quoted a book you don't think is accurate.

Are you really this intellectually limited or are you just dishonest?

The argument is that you made a claim and it was disproved by your own standard of evidence.

Okay but towards the start I said from a non religious view I still think it is wrong.

(October 13, 2014 at 2:10 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: So you think it is right to have abortions because you quoted a book you don't think is accurate.

No I think it is a right to have abortions during the first trimester because the fetus does not yet have anything approaching the cognitive functioning necessary for it to be considered human.

You said the Bible prohibits abortion because fetuses are persons. You're wrong about that. In fact the Bible does not treat fetuses as persons. And you obviously haven't really read it with understanding.

(October 13, 2014 at 2:15 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: Okay but towards the start I said from a non religious view I still think it is wrong.

You don't have a non-religious view.

It does but you just want me to kill people.

(October 13, 2014 at 2:18 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: It does but you just want me to kill people.

Wait what!? Who has asked you to kill anyone?