(October 17, 2014 at 12:40 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(October 17, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Drich Wrote: Your joking right? Maybe try reading my posts before responding to them.

So God created man to be the master of his creation...why isn't God just the master of his creation? What purpose did Adam serve that God wasn't alraedy fulfilling himself?

Theist Reply: No, HE created man to appreciate HIS creation. (Because his earlier creations, the angels, proved themselves to be "dicks-with-wings" as shown by the winchester brothers)

(October 17, 2014 at 1:07 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: So..God was lonely? What about for the eternity before we existed and the eternity after we are gone?

I wouldn't expect a perfect being to require anything at all. It would be complete. No need to create. Just "be".

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Why must we "Ask Seek and Knock"? Why must we do anything at all?

(October 17, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 17, 2014 at 11:47 am)Tonus Wrote: As I have explained before, I have always been a happy and optimistic person. I was happy as a theist, and am happy as an atheist. The only thing that made me stop believing was that I continued to test my beliefs and ultimately found them wanting once I stripped away the presuppositions and fallacies that supported them.

I did a thread of this once before. If your 'beliefs' do not relfect the God of the bible not what he has put together for us then what would make you think He would support your broken understanding of Him? If He supported your Broken understanding then He would only have verified the mistakes in theology you have. Sending you further away from who He actually is and closer to who you think God to be.

I am not picking on any one church, but if you look at Christianity as a whole there is one 'main stream group' who has played this senerio out. They have a series of head preists who get to rewrite the bible in their various decrees. now if you take the bible and read it and compare it to this particular religion' core beliefs you will find that some of their core doctrines are not only not in the bible what is in the bible flat our goes against what they say do. Now imagine if God supported them with miricals and all the trim and lace most of you look for (signs and wonders) This would only throw gasoline on the fire and they would freighttrain themselves away from God.

As it is God does not support those who do not know Him as He does for those who do. If you are not being supported, it does not mean God does not exist. It means your specific version of God does not exist. That is why we are told to KNOCK/Persist. Because depending on how hard we want to hold on to our personal version of God will determine on how long we will be knocking.

I don't remember this in Luke 11. Where did you get this from?

His ass I guess

(October 17, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Drich Wrote: Again it's ease completely depends on you and the condition of your heart. Are you willing to assume that everything you think you and your faith knows of God is wrong, and are you willing to be rewritten in the matters of faith if need be?

Hmm, would you consider trying this?

Quote:Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Moroni 10: 3-5

Should you not find that the book of Mormon is true then obviously you did not ask with a sincere heart. If so, persist and ask again.

(October 17, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Chas Wrote:

(October 17, 2014 at 11:31 am)Drich Wrote: Oh F/F you say the darnest things.

Would you expect the President of the United States come to your house and personally ask for your vote?

Except the President actually does that. Just not every house.

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(October 17, 2014 at 8:40 am)Drich Wrote: He did not fail MY promise test.. MY promise test has one adhearing to his end of what is recorded in the bible. to date no one who says they sought God has actually followed the steps as outlined in luke 11.

There's your circular reasoning again - you assume it to be true to prove it is true; it is begging the question.

And telling people that it didn't work because they didn't do it right is a No True Scotsman fallacy.

If your going to use logical fallacies then look them up first, so you know whether or not you are using them correctly..

No true scots man is only a no true scots man if the subject or claim is a universal one. Meaning if thier are no rules governing who is or isn't a 'scotman' concerning a given subject or variable.
"it is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

The reason 'no true scots' man does not apply here is because there are indeed rules governing who is and who is not Christian. In this specific circumatance those who A/S/K as outlined by luke 11 and those who do not.

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(October 17, 2014 at 1:11 pm)rasetsu Wrote:

(October 17, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Drich Wrote: I did a thread of this once before. If your 'beliefs' do not relfect the God of the bible not what he has put together for us then what would make you think He would support your broken understanding of Him? If He supported your Broken understanding then He would only have verified the mistakes in theology you have. Sending you further away from who He actually is and closer to who you think God to be.

I am not picking on any one church, but if you look at Christianity as a whole there is one 'main stream group' who has played this senerio out. They have a series of head preists who get to rewrite the bible in their various decrees. now if you take the bible and read it and compare it to this particular religion' core beliefs you will find that some of their core doctrines are not only not in the bible what is in the bible flat our goes against what they say do. Now imagine if God supported them with miricals and all the trim and lace most of you look for (signs and wonders) This would only throw gasoline on the fire and they would freighttrain themselves away from God.

As it is God does not support those who do not know Him as He does for those who do. If you are not being supported, it does not mean God does not exist. It means your specific version of God does not exist. That is why we are told to KNOCK/Persist. Because depending on how hard we want to hold on to our personal version of God will determine on how long we will be knocking.

I don't remember this in Luke 11. Where did you get this from?

what made you think this was a quote from luke 11?

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(October 17, 2014 at 1:10 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Why must we "Ask Seek and Knock"? Why must we do anything at all?

Because God said we must.

Um... no Drips, you really are committing the NTS fallacy. You're setting up a set of rules for being a 'real' christian, then when someone who does not adhere to that set (even if they're a christian), you dub them as "not a real christian". You have no reasoned explanation for why these other christians aren't 'really' christians, which is where the 'unreasoned' part of the NTS comes in. It's a really simple fallacy to see, and you're doing it quite explicitly.


I mean, the definitive example of the NTS is right there on the page you linked, and it can easily be shown in different terms.
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "I am Scottish, and I put sugar on my porridge."
Person A: "Well, no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

can be seen as:

Drich: "If you A/S/K, you'll get knowledge of God."
Anyone else: "I did A/S/K, but I did not get knowledge of God."
Drich: "Well, only if you really A/S/K do you get knowledge of God."

You don't stop for one moment to even consider your method is flawed.

(October 17, 2014 at 1:48 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 17, 2014 at 1:10 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Why must we "Ask Seek and Knock"? Why must we do anything at all?

Because God said we must.

Where? And how do you know GOD said it?

(October 17, 2014 at 1:51 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Drich: "If you A/S/K, you'll get knowledge of God."
Anyone else: "I did A/S/K, but I did not get knowledge of God."
Drich: "Well, only if you really A/S/K do you get knowledge of God."

You don't stop for one moment to even consider your method is flawed.

I've put this to him many times. Not once did I get a satisfying answer.

The A/S/K method is unfalsifiable.

If we claim that we tried, there are an endless number of excuses Dritch can give on why it didn't work.