(October 18, 2014 at 8:51 am)professor Wrote: God did not say to the devil to kill his kids.
God did say- he is in your hand only spare his life.

In other words, the only thing that god forbid the devil from, was killing Job. Everything else was on the table. Did god not know that Satan would visit a bloodbath upon Job's children and servants? Considering that he had thousands of livestock, he must have had dozens of servants, and only one of those was left alive by the marauders sent by the devil.

Only Job's wife is spared, so that she may experience the double-indignity of being used by Satan to test Job's faith, and then have the dubious pleasure of bearing another ten children after losing the first ten that she had birthed. I think that she may have had it worse than Job, but she's just a woman... a prop.

professor Wrote:The experience of Job illustrates why the devil is a fear monger.

But that's pretty obvious to the Christian; the devil is the wrench in the works, the guy trying to lead everyone astray. The question is-- why is god his chief enabler?

When Satan went up to god and complained that god had blessed Job and protected him, god should have replied "well yeah, he's upright and blameless. That's the kind of thing that I reward. Now get out of my sight and keep counting the days until you get YOUR reward." At this point the devil would've slunk out the back entrance and we'd think that maybe god was getting close to figuring this stuff out. But no, he agrees to let his worst enemy play with his best and brightest pupil.

And as I pointed out before, Job has the reasonable belief that Yahweh, being a good and merciful god, will eventually explain to him why he and his family and servants were put through the wringer. Instead, god makes pretty clear that no one gets to question him because he can lay an even sicker ass-beating on you than the devil could even dream. Job is finally cured of his ailments, and made richer than he was before, and is given ten beautiful new children... and he gets to spend the rest of his days knowing that all it takes is a quick conversation in heaven for god to take it all away again and turn his life into a nightmare.

That's your god. I'm betting that you have faith that he won't ever treat you like that. But Job probably felt the same way. Or he would've, if he or Yahweh had been real characters.

I have never met more enthusiastic fear mongers than the Christians. The more indoctrinated, the greater the morbid dread that other human beings do not live in fear.

sorry this thread has gotten away from me.

(October 18, 2014 at 5:12 am)Luckie Wrote: Copy pasta from previous page:

Drich says A/S/K,

Because A/S/K is short for Ask, Seek and Knock, for the Holy Spirit. This principle is taught in Luke 11. For anyone who asks it will be given, anyone who seeks they will find anyone who Knocks the door will be open unto them.

Quote:but the bible says seek and ye shall find. Lets just assume ONE of us, at least, knocked correctly, repeatedly, with all the prerequisites Drich has outlined as the 'correct method'. Does he just not have an answer for those people, as to why they sought and did not find?

Just because you asked and received or sought and found, it does not mean you will be able to do anything with what you have been given or found.

Quote:Drrrrichh, can you explain?

Soiently
It's like finding a 100 million tons of burried treasure on a deserted island. Great you found lots of treasure, but now what will you do with it? if your stuck on the island. It is in the knocking that the Holy Spirit will come and plug in your new gifts.
Or rather help you move your treasure off the island and back into your everyday life.

Quote:The bible says seek ye first the kingdom of god and his righteousness and you will find it, knock and the door shall be opened unto you, hallelu halleluiahhh.

thats not how the song goes.


It goes like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0ltm6CZlQE

Quote:It doesn't say, 'knock over and over and maybe god will open it for you if you did it right.'

9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

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(October 17, 2014 at 4:49 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Drich, my method is the one actually stated in the Book of Mormon. What's wrong with it?

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You too Professor. How does ASK differ from Mornoni's asking with a sincere heart? Because looking at this from the outside, I don't see a difference.

nothing if your looking to be mormon

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(October 17, 2014 at 3:03 pm)Drich Wrote: Drich: If you A/S/K as per Luke 11 you will receive a measure of the Holy Spirit. Meaing you will be given a peice of God to help you establish and maintain a relationship.

(October 17, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: How do you know many atheists did not try this when they/we were believers?

because of the knocking part. It does not have a time limit on it. if the atheist are not still knocking then they did not follow the out line in luke 11.

It is my firm belief that when you ask God for proof or a relationship and your in a toxic faith, apart of what you ask for is sheding your toxic faith. Many of you identify this is disbelief or atheism. So in essence Atheism is apart of what you asked for, only knocking will bring you back to God on the other side. God makes you tear down the house you have built with the trials of life and has you rebuild on a foundation of Christ. Most of you ask for the demo and rebuild (even if you dont know it) and only get through the demo part.

Quote:Anyone else: We Asked, and sought, or we ask and knocked or I sought and asked once.... and did not receive anything therefore God can not be real because the universe spins around me, and if there is a God then he better damn well meet me on my terms who does he think he is...

Quote:This is exactly what I was talking about when I said A/S/k is unfalsifiable. "If it failed, you must have left a step out".

Not true. I have said repeatedly if you A/S and failed it is because you have yet to complete the Knocking required.

Quote:You are assuming that one of the three A/S/K steps was left out of our attempts?

It's not an assumption. Because when ever one of you speaks to A/S/K in the past tense you have openly admitted that you are no longer knocking. If you are no longer knocking and did not receive the Holy Spirit as promised, then you did not follow the outline in Luke 11. Luke 11 tells us to knock till we get what we have been asking and seeking after. Not give up when things look bleek/The man inside tells us to go away.

Quote:For arguments sake lets say, we did leave a step out, but in all other ways were sincere. Wouldn't a god that wanted to have this relationship with us understand our sincerity and wish to have a relationship with him and give us a 'measure of the holy spirit' anyway?

Yes absolutly, why else do you think you have been given the gift of doubt that has canceled out your old faith, which positions yoou to rebuild strictly on Him? It is your pride/lack of keeping up your end of the process that has Him leave you where you are.
God has told us He will not exist in a proud Heart.
In this case a proud heart tells you that because God does not exist the way you think He should, No God can exist.. Therefore it is ok to quit when things look bleek.

How much pride does it take for one to have to demand God perform only in the way you expect Him to perform??

Can you see why it is so important that we be willing to meet God on His terms rather than demand He meet us on ours?

What if He started granting wishes with your warped version of Him firmly planted in your heart? Your granted wishes would only further undermine who God is and how it is He wants you to live. because He has re-enforced your picture of Him with those granted wishes. So He makes us drop the toxic religious beliefs and forces us to seek him on His terms.

Quote:What kind of petty deity would think, "that guy really wants to have have a relationship with me, his sincerity is 100%. Oh, but he left out a step. He goes to hell. Too bad really, because he was so close".

It more like that guy is serious, give Him what he wants (per the prodigal son).... Then the guy falls away and never comes back.which means he only wanted the freedom God offers just not God himself.

Quote:"Or maybe it was unfair of me to have him born and raised in a Hindu country. He didn't even make an attempt to A/S/K. Oh well, he goes to hell".

No one is born a Christian. I think it is harder to become a bible based Christian when one is born into a given faith.

What you call A.S.K. I call A.O.R.: Assert, Obfuscate and Repeat. I'll have to work on my version to make a snappier acronym.

This thread is just one giant-ass No True Scotsman with Drich saying over and over "youre just not doing it right".

(October 21, 2014 at 9:19 am)Drich Wrote:

(October 17, 2014 at 4:49 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Drich, my method is the one actually stated in the Book of Mormon. What's wrong with it?

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You too Professor. How does ASK differ from Mornoni's asking with a sincere heart? Because looking at this from the outside, I don't see a difference.

nothing if your looking to be mormon

You might have guessed I'm not looking to be Mormon. . .

But how can you not see the problem here? If you use a method like A/S/K on any set of beliefs from mainline Christianity, to Mormonism, to Islam, to devil worship, chances are good, you will find what you are looking for. Since the things found are diametrically opposed, it seems to me that the seekers are not finding anything real. Certainly they can't all be finding the true god.

And it's not as if the method only works on reasonable stuff (not suggesting the Bible is reasonable). The Mormons call their version of this seeking, the truth test. And they use it to verify the truth of the Book of Mormon. Ever dipped into The Book of Mormon? It's less historical than the Bible. It contradicts what we know about North America at every turn. Yet, using the truth test, person after person accepts it as trumping the gospels.

So how would an outsider know who to ask for? Or if any of the gods sought exists at all? Certainly, ASK won't tell you, because it works on all the gods.

---- Except of course when it doesn't work and the seeker is told to go on knocking endlessly . . . .

Knock, knock ..

(October 21, 2014 at 9:19 am)Drich Wrote: It is my firm belief that when you ask God for proof or a relationship and your in a toxic faith, apart of what you ask for is sheding your toxic faith. Many of you identify this is disbelief or atheism. So in essence Atheism is apart of what you asked for, only knocking will bring you back to God on the other side.

Drich, you seem to be unaware that, in order to do your ASKing, we need to believe in the existence of the being to whom we should be ASKing, in the first place.
That doesn't work.

On the other hand, you also have believers failing at implementing the auto-enhancing self-brainwashing tactic outlined in Luke... To me, that says that the methodology is not at all obvious. Why would such a full-proof method of having personal evidence for the existence of loving deity be so hard to grasp, even for believers?!
Why would the written word require your helping hand at interpreting and guiding those who failed to implement it properly, due to, apparently, a poor understanding of the text?

A knock-knock joke, Drich style:

Knock-knock.
Who's there?
Dejav.
Dejav who?
Knock-knock.

(October 15, 2014 at 1:11 am)Godschild Wrote: For the ones who know me I'm not back, I left with something left unanswered and thought I would answer.
Many asked me how I could possibly have knowledge of God's existence and the answer is the NT teaches this, Christians can know and have knowledge of God. You guys want to throw out that all we can have is faith and the NT just doesn't teach that. Our faith is in the hope that God will do those things He has promised to do for Christians, this is what our faith is about and the NT teaches this very thing. So in short those who are Christians will have the knowledge God exists and will have faith that He will continue to keep His promises as he did in the past. I trust that He is not a liar and so far His record holds true. Read the NT and find these simple facts, they are there if you have the courage to look and are as open minded as you claim, which I have my doubts about the open mindedness.

GC

Welcome, Godschild. I am in favor of you making additional appearances, if you can find the time.

Being convinced that something is true and knowing it are not the same thing. For your belief that God is real to be knowledge instead of faith, it would have to be based on arguments and evidence that are convincing to people capable of intelligently evaluating the arguments and evidence and who also don't have a bias in favor of believing it. It's not like you're getting replies that amount to: I can find no fault with that argument, but I refuse to believe anyway. There's always a problem with the argument. That all the arguments in favor of God have serious problems tells me that there just aren't any pro-God arguments that aren't seriously flawed: if there was even one, there would be no need to even mention the others.

Now, it could be reasonable to believe a direct revelation you've received...or if not reasonable, unavoidable in that it compels belief. If there is a God, it is welcome to compel my belief, should it want to avoid giving me something I can actually use to convince others. If there is a God, I do want to know it, or at least be convinced of it. But I don't want to be convinced of God if there isn't one.