(October 31, 2014 at 11:51 pm)Rhythm Wrote: One could (and many do) make the argument that all forms of worship (and much much else) are centered around the one true god, that others are simply "worshipping him the wrong way". In that sense, no one would stand before the fire for having believed in the wrong god, or no god- at all.

There is an element missing in your arguement. That is attonement. Only Christ offers it. So your half right. But only so far as all Christ centered worship is centered around the one true God.

If the deity of Christ is denied then the worship does not count.

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(November 1, 2014 at 6:21 am)miniboes Wrote:

(October 31, 2014 at 11:02 pm)Drich Wrote: That the wonderful thing about attonement through Christ and those who seek it out..

The same attonement offered to us when we willfully sin, is also offered when we "worship Him the wrong way."

Sorry to burst your bubble 'bub,' but we are covered.

I wonder, you have an atheistic view of all other religions except Christianity, what do you do if it is Allah, Jahweh or Zeus judging you? Or perhaps a god that tested you on if you could come to the conclusion that atheism is the most reasonable position provided the (lack of) evidence?

Sorry if this has been asked before; long thread.

Then read the other judgement day defense thread.

(November 1, 2014 at 8:29 am)Drich Wrote: There is an element missing in your arguement. That is attonement. Only Christ offers it. So your half right. But only so far as all Christ centered worship is centered around the one true God.

If the deity of Christ is denied then the worship does not count.

How strange that in such a narrowly focused exemption - you just happen to fall in the exempt group that would otherwise seem to allow for a great many more people to be under the tent of the divine.

Attonement is not required for one to be christian. One can imagine that there are believing christians who will indeed -not- be saved because, for example, they live in a state of perpetual and unrepentent sinfulness. They believe, but they do not commit. Just as easily it can be and is said that all will recieve such attonement by belief, regardless of any other circumstance. I don't think it has any effect on the exemption offered whatsoever. For all I know (and all you know)..the details of the exemption and attonement are what you are doing wrong in the first place - and would be covered by whatever exemption may exist which you have miscommunicated to me(or have had miscommunicated to you), as a mouthpeice of the almighty.

There are, of course, faiths that do not deny the deity of christ (it may even be central to their faith), but would not, with any likelihood......be called "christian" -by you-. I assume that their non-christian worship counts, what with recognizing the divinity of christ and simply worshiping the wrong way, eh (not that we aren't well on our way to showing how transparently vacuous this exemption actually is by piling on condition after condition...as we will most certainly be doing - I just wanted to lend you my shovel)?

(October 30, 2014 at 10:09 pm)Drich Wrote: what if He tells you the reason He has never responded to your query was because you assumption on your inward guide was incorrect? And, that any response He gave you would just further you assumption that your version was correct?

Sorry but it's manifest to me that we have to an inward guide if there is any such thing as guidance. I believe anyone who does their best to follow the guidance with in through their own reflection and help of others, God will forgive him and give him enough guidance to have an honorable life. I have a sense of honor, of moral actions, of what it means to be great, I have a spiritual sense of God, all this I believe is guidance. I believe the pure word in the soul is the word of God. We had it all along. I've experience this. I don't know how God giving me a response will only make me more deluded. It feels that would be the default state if he doesn't respond and guide me.

Quote:..and if He said, what you read was sought out to support what your 'inner voice' wanted to be true?

Well, I will argue I was sincere in my judgement, and that if I was deluded by own inner voice and blinded by it, it was not out not wanting the truth but sincerely out of what I thought was obvious to me.

Quote: ...and if it wasn't supposed to be 'more inspiring?' Again what if it was just supposed to be enough for one to get a start or push in the right direction?

I would think a book written by God would be that we couldn't expect it to be more inspiring then it is. It would be the ultimate inspiring book because he wants the best out of us. What you said will only make sense if God is not trying to make us the best human beings we can be but only cares if we make a minimum start. Besides to get started you don't need a book, people lived before the bible in different lands, and were human beings that lived moral lives, tried to live honorably, and had inward guidance. Remember without an inward guide or inward guidance, you wouldn't be able to tell if a book is a guidance or not.

Quote: what if He knew what you ment by that?

It seems though none of his followers do know what it is meant and the outward of it seems non-sense. It seems it contradicts language and makes three gods into one God which is a paradox. Each being a god and all one god. It seems the inward spiritual knowledge we have is just about one ultimate being that encompasses all greatness and misses no life and encompasses all life, and such nothing can be beside him. It doesn't make sense to make god to parts, or to divide him, because identity seems to be the ultimate great which is one by definition. We don't think of people as three parts, so why should God be thought of that?

If he alone knew what was meant by that and as it is contradicts humanities logic and understanding, he was better off keeping it to himself that doing this whole sacrifice thing that revolves around what seems to be a paradox (3 gods = 1 god thing).

Quote:..and if He told you the physical sacerfice was just a physical representation of the Spiritual cost of what God endured to 'just forgive humanity?'

There should be not spiritual cost of what God needs to endure. It doesn't make sense. And this going out of the way to do this bizarre act of human/god sacrifice just gets a whole lot of people condemned for not believing while the Bible teaches those who didn't get the word and were guided by the law in their hearts would be saved. It just makes the situation worse, it makes all about believing while before God would save people of out grace if they were good enough people.

Besides I believe people can be good, and this what God made me believe. I see good in people, and I believe even if they don't deserve forgiveness, God is grateful to goodness, that he would reward them. He doesn't need sacrifice. He is forgiving and grateful.

Quote:And all He wanted from is was a simple acknoweledgement for what was done for us? In essence God wanted some respect for what He endured, if we want to reap the benfits for said attonement?

I don't think it's that easy. We have to believe in a whole book, in a whole religion, in a whole doctrine...and be guided to know it's true...before we can acknowledge that God did this for us. Otherwise, there is no way to acknowledge it but just at out of sheer guess work. And at the end, this is saying, that we must believe in a religion to be saved or otherwise we go to hell. This is the ultimatum that God would be giving us if he did this sacrifice. On top of that, he would introducing an trinity aspect of him that seems non-sensical and no one believed that about him without being told about it...no deist believes in a trinity God for example...this shows you it's not ingrained in us and he would make that much harder.

Quote:what if He showed you what you understand to be good is relative?

Then I would tell him this is what I believe about people and could not think that all people deserved to be punished, so how could I accept a doctrine that tells us otherwise. When people are outside christianity, they don't come up with views that all humans deserve to be perpetually tortured or distanced from God no matter what they do, all people are on that level. That no human has made it to the level of deserving a good reward and a life of peace. This view is doctrinal and doesn't seem ingrained in us humans. Again, I can't give up the view I am inspired with simple because a book says otherwise which I can't verify to be true specially as it goes against everything God is inspiring to believe by inward guidance.

Besides to be honest...I think no one honestly believes no one is good, not even christians..it's just doctrine they take..but they don't actually believe that and distinguish between good and evil people.

Quote:and if he showed you that the book was just a road map, not the final destination?

I don't know how that changes anything...not accepting a road map doesn't mean no one can't get to the destination. Specially when it comes to human, it's obvious everyone is capable of goodness and honor without a book telling them what it consists of.

Quote:What if He then points back to this post?
hock:

It doesn't do anything because all your stating is what if these things that contradict my sense of logical, rational, morality, greatness, honor, and spirituality, are all true...we can play the what if card all day...but at the end deists don't come to the conclusion of Christians for a reason...it's because it's not inwardly guided by us to come to these conclusions and they must be accepted by doctrine and be guided as truths outside of properly basic spiritual experience of humanity.

So can I ask, what the fuck is a strageity?

It's a type of plan that doesn't really exist, in case of a situation that doesn't really exist.

(November 1, 2014 at 6:33 pm)Chad32 Wrote: It's a type of plan that doesn't really exist, in case of a situation that doesn't really exist.

Really? Sounds like you took the words stripping gay deity and made them into one word.

(October 26, 2014 at 2:40 pm)Drich Wrote: Ok, you just died. Long full life, good by western standards just not saved per the bible. Or you die after a short life still not saved in a fiery car crash, beheaded by isis or the ebolia get you, your choice, either way your dead..

Then you wake up...

This is either an awe sh*t moment or this is where you pull out the sum total of all of our discussions here.. Meaning when here you all seem to have been practicing why God is unjust and is not in a position to judge you.. So now you are not face down before the judgement seat of Christ. So what do you have to say when/if He asks you why you did not A/S/K for the proof you needed? Or do you throw yourself at the mercy of the judge? Or is their an option C you have worked out for yourself?

well either i would though it out or i'm taking the easy way out.
either or i will still be going to hell so it wouldn't matter if i live a
long life or ending my life.

Based on the Abrahamic rules, I know for a fact I'm going to heaven.

According to the mythology and the rules derived therefrom, I am a sinner. I have committed the one unforgivable sin, denial of the holy spirit etc. In fact I make a point of committing it every day. Thus, by the rules of this game, there is no escaping eternal postmortem punishment for me. The absolute worst punishment that the Abrahamic god can possibly inflict upon me as an atheist would be to make me spend my eternity in its presence. Thus, I am destined for heaven. And may Ceiling Cat have mercy on what apparently passes for my soul.

(October 26, 2014 at 2:40 pm)Drich Wrote: So what do you have to say when/if He asks you why you did not A/S/K for the proof you needed?

You clearly did not try hard enough to make your existence verifiably known, dickhead.

(November 1, 2014 at 8:54 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Based on the Abrahamic rules, I know for a fact I'm going to heaven.

According to the mythology and the rules derived therefrom, I am a sinner. I have committed the one unforgivable sin, denial of the holy spirit etc. In fact I make a point of committing it every day. Thus, by the rules of this game, there is no escaping eternal postmortem punishment for me. The absolute worst punishment that the Abrahamic god can possibly inflict upon me as an atheist would be to make me spend my eternity in its presence. Thus, I am destined for heaven. And may Ceiling Cat have mercy on what apparently passes for my soul.

Rest assured that God is merciful, in that you will not have to spend an eternity in 'Heaven' in service.

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(November 1, 2014 at 9:41 am)Rhythm Wrote: How strange that in such a narrowly focused exemption - you just happen to fall in the exempt group that would otherwise seem to allow for a great many more people to be under the tent of the divine.

That's just it it does not just happen.. I have journied a long way to find myself where I am, with a long road ahead.

Quote:Attonement is not required for one to be christian.

B/C/V???

Quote: One can imagine that there are believing christians who will indeed -not- be saved because, for example, they live in a state of perpetual and unrepentent sinfulness. They believe, but they do not commit. Just as easily it can be and is said that all will recieve such attonement by belief, regardless of any other circumstance. I don't think it has any effect on the exemption offered whatsoever.

Ah, so you don't have Book Chapter and Verse to support your version of salvation, just the fact that 'you don't think.'

Quote:For all I know (and all you know)..the details of the exemption and attonement are what you are doing wrong in the first place - and would be covered by whatever exemption may exist which you have miscommunicated to me(or have had miscommunicated to you), as a mouthpeice of the almighty.

That could be... If we were not having a direct conversation about the values/rules concerning the attonement process (plan of salvation) of the God of the Bible. All anyone need do is open the bible and read.

Quote:There are, of course, faiths that do not deny the deity of christ (it may even be central to their faith), but would not, with any likelihood......be called "christian" -by you-.

Deity and Teachings of Christ They must go hand in Hand.. fore "Even the demons believe and tremble, yet will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.."

Other wise know your right.. There are those who say the Jesus is the son of God, but they also say the elect members of that faith are also the sons of God of the same caliber that Christ Himself was... That God was at one time just some shlub who was faithful to his God and was given a world to rule over and as such they all will eventually be like God.

The problem? Jesus did not teach that. He kinda claim He was the only son of God, and that salvation could only infact happen through Him.

Quote: I assume that their non-christian worship counts, what with recognizing the divinity of christ and simply worshiping the wrong way, eh (not that we aren't well on our way to showing how transparently vacuous this exemption actually is by piling on condition after condition...as we will most certainly be doing - I just wanted to lend you my shovel)?

In the end it is up to Christ to make that judgement. This judgement will be based on what those people were given to work with. God/Christ is not a fool, and what ever He decides I will stand behind even if a given person is not up to my personal standard.