(November 18, 2014 at 12:32 pm)Lao Shizi Wrote: It's amazing to me, that in apparent goodwill, Khansins politely asked if anyone had any questions about Islam, and was rewarded with snarky, bullshit comments. That's fucked up.

I don't give a shit about islam....or any other theistic nonsense.

I look at what they do. Not what they say.

(November 18, 2014 at 12:40 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Q: was I born a muslim?

I would say NO, if we believe that we are automatically Muslims when we are born in Muslim families. We are not born-Muslims just because we are born is a Muslim family as we do not inherit Islam from our parents. It is the education at home, the curriculum at school and the environment that determine whether we are Muslims or not. We are Muslims ONLY IF we understood the meaning of Tawheed and APPLY the meaning. For example, the wife and son of Prophet Noah ‘alaihi salaam were Non-Muslim although they were a son and a wife of a prophet. The son did not inherit Islam from his father. By having a father who is a prophet, mufti or a great Islamic scholar does not make some one becomes Muslim if he himself does not understand the meaning of Tawheed and never apply the meaning.

(November 18, 2014 at 12:55 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(November 18, 2014 at 12:16 pm)Khansins Wrote: Can you please clarify that Hadith ?

That sounds like you do follow the Hadith, else it wouldn't matter.

Bukhari (6:60:79) - Two people guilty of "illegal" intercourse are brought to Muhammad, who orders them both stoned to death. Apparently their act was out of love, since the verse records the man as trying to shield the woman from the stones.

Muslim (17:4196) - A married man confesses that he has committed adultery. Muhammad orders him stoned. According to the passage, the first several stones caused such pain that he tried to escape and was dragged back.

Muslim (17:4206) - A woman who became pregnant confesses to Muhammad that she is guilty of adultery. Muhammad allows her to have the child, then has her stoned.

Muslim (17:4209) - A woman confesses adultery and is stoned to death on Muhammad's order. Her lover is punished with 100 lashes and exile for a year.

I'm actually studying these Hadiths in detail for past weeks ( on the same topic-adultery). So I don't think I can give you the answer right now but thanks for pointing it out. I'm still looking for Why would Muhammad stone a woman to death ? Thats totally not making sense to me at all.

I like this thing about Atheists. You people question the existence of God but do not blindly accept God like we Muslims do.

(November 19, 2014 at 10:31 am)robvalue Wrote: I appreciate that where Islam is concerned, leaving is not as simple as that. I understand the need to fake belief for self preservation, until such a time as you may get a chance for freedom. I get that, and I sympathize deeply with all the people in that situation. But I don't understand coming to an atheist forum and trying to defend Islam. This would be the place to be honest, to say all the things you can't say elsewhere....

But if you really do think Islam is good, then there is not much more I can say. I hope one day you will wake up and see that it's a horrific religion, as are most religions. It's based around control and fear, just like christianity, although in a more obvious way. Holy books are bullshit. They were written by dweebs a long time ago who didn't know shit except how to kill each other with rocks. If you think they are anything more than that, you have been brainwashed. You don't need the religion, you don't need the book. You are a human first, and if you have been made to feel that being a Muslim is part of your identity, you have been coerced like all the others, and it is an insult to your individuality.

I'm not here to defend Islam by any means. I'm here to
First , Clear any misconceptions people might have about Islam and about its portrayal.
Second , To understand and question my religion by engaging in healthy debate with Atheists. Cause atheists are the ones who do not believe blindly in God and finding answers to their questions enhances my knowledge and understanding of religion. Yes , I'm a Human first. Any human's blood and sanctity is dearer to me than the Holy Kaabah. I do not think that by killing a human I can be gurranteed 72 virgins.

Humanism will come first. And Islam is humanism. And though it does not happen , at times I question its humanism too. Till now I haven't found any of its commandments violating humanism.

If a situation comes where I am to decide to kill somebody ( without any possible justification -legally) and Islam will encourage me to pursue such act , I will go against it. I dont care what those bearded Mullahs say about it. But I know I can explain it to Allah.

My intent on this forum is not to hurt anybody's views as everyone must and is free to question any fact ( Such is the quality of humans) and to Learn more which I do not. You people might know better than me and thats exactly why I want you to correct me. Nowadays , I do not refer to Quran anymore though rather think of most peaceful solution to the problem possible. But where possible (if I have the right information) I will try to correct your doubts about Islam.

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(November 19, 2014 at 11:56 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(November 18, 2014 at 12:32 pm)Lao Shizi Wrote: It's amazing to me, that in apparent goodwill, Khansins politely asked if anyone had any questions about Islam, and was rewarded with snarky, bullshit comments. That's fucked up.

I don't give a shit about islam....or any other theistic nonsense.

I look at what they do. Not what they say.

Thats absolutely right. A Muslim's intentions are judged by his actions not by what he says. And only his actions will speak on Doom's day not his flowery statements.

I applaud your attitude, and I can see you are open to reasonable discussion. That is a huge deal and rare in theists. I'm glad you took what I said in the spirit it was meant. I'm not here screaming into my keyboard, I'm writing quite calmly about the world as I see it.

I'm very glad to hear you would not kill for your religion. Although I disagree with some of the statements you just made, I think your overall position is much healthier than most theists. I hope you continue to search and to find answers.

You're right, atheists will give it to you straight, as you've seen! I come to this forum partly as a place I can express my views, and partly in the hope that my words will be of some value to others.

Keep it up! I think I must have misread your intentions coming here, my apologies. I hope we can all continue to have worthwhile discussions.

(As to specifics, why would he stone a woman to death? There is no good answer. People make a living out of coming up with excuses and rationalizations, and they are all complete trash. Atheists can see through them a mile off. A loving god would not have people being stoned to death. So he's either not loving, not capable of stopping it, or not there at all. If there is a god, he is the one who decides what range of actions we can choose from. So he gives us the "stone people to death" option. That wasn't necessary.)

When it comes to religion, I want people to think for themselves and give their own reasons, not quote from some dusty old book as if it means something. It sounds like you're on that path.

(November 19, 2014 at 12:04 pm)Khansins Wrote:

(November 18, 2014 at 12:40 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Q: was I born a muslim?

I would say NO, if we believe that we are automatically Muslims when we are born in Muslim families. We are not born-Muslims just because we are born is a Muslim family as we do not inherit Islam from our parents. It is the education at home, the curriculum at school and the environment that determine whether we are Muslims or not. We are Muslims ONLY IF we understood the meaning of Tawheed and APPLY the meaning. For example, the wife and son of Prophet Noah ‘alaihi salaam were Non-Muslim although they were a son and a wife of a prophet. The son did not inherit Islam from his father. By having a father who is a prophet, mufti or a great Islamic scholar does not make some one becomes Muslim if he himself does not understand the meaning of Tawheed and never apply the meaning.

Well then... why are there muslims who think/believe everyone is born a muslim?
Where did they get that notion?
How does it get propagated?

For me, atheism is really simple.

Question: Is there any credible evidence of a god? Evidence that would be good enough to prove that something else exists?

Answer: No.

Question: Even if there is some sort of god, is there any reason to think it has any resemblance to the god character in any of the holy books?

Answer: No.

Conclusion: Get on with life and deal with reality.

My turn off from Islam is suratal teen. It says all of humanity is reduced to the lowest of the low except the believers who do good.

How do you rationalize christians who believe in trinity, hindus, atheists, and people who don't accept the guidance, and are good people...is it really impossible for them to be good? And if they are good, can it be said they are reduced to the lowest of the low? Are believers really that superior to all disbelievers?

Also people are averse to the truth for several reasons but I don't think who should expect everyone to be sincere to the truth...Christians even if they know inwardly trinity doesn't make sense will continue with their beliefs for other reasons.

I think the way Quran judges humanity is too harsh.

(November 18, 2014 at 12:16 pm)Khansins Wrote: I see Islam flourising quite fast in today's world. And in days to come ,it will spread even larger. But NOTE here as well that at the same time Islamic extremism will spread too like a wild fire. It will mostly affect the Islamic states and this is warned to us by Prophet. He said that you should beware of extremism as extremism has disrupted past Islamic nations.

Meh, I'm not interested in your prophets opinions or warnings. I put more stock in you, personally. What do you think is the best way to deal with that extremism? Should anything be done at all, or can we expect it to peter out and die like christian extremism has in the west? Similarly, should we expect to see Islam homogenize with secular ideals as we've seen with Christianity?

Quote:The war against terrorism today is also a war to free Islamic civilization from the baleful actions of extremists and to give that area of the world a chance to experience liberty, for liberty is the only medium by which religion can truly flourish.

I think that might be a tad naive. I was part of the war on terrorism, the cruel boot part. I assure you we freed no one, nor did we (those with functioning brain cells) expect to. Do you see Islam building a more robust respect for liberty -itself-, as it benefits from the liberty you assume a successful "War on Terror" will bring? Supposing, for a moment, that it does not - might an argument be made for letting the entire region implode under it's own steam while limiting our interference to assiduously protecting our interests and furthering our own goals (or, as I like to call it...business as usual)?

I'm having trouble grasping this whole "becoming a Muslim" thing. You become a Muslim because you pass some sort of test, then someone says you are a Muslim? What gives anyone the right to say who is and isn't a Muslim?

That aspect of it sounds exceptionally cult like to me, nothing to do with religion at all. It sounds divisive and dangerous. (I pretty much equate cults and religions anyway, but they are usually more subtle about it than this.)

It sounds like the leftover from a primitive time when such things might have made sense. I think for free thought and liberty to prevail, this "branding" (as I understand it) needs to go.

If I'm being totally ignorant about it, please correct me. I tried to understand it but it sounds so weird to me.

(November 19, 2014 at 11:56 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(November 18, 2014 at 12:32 pm)Lao Shizi Wrote: It's amazing to me, that in apparent goodwill, Khansins politely asked if anyone had any questions about Islam, and was rewarded with snarky, bullshit comments. That's fucked up.

I don't give a shit about islam....or any other theistic nonsense.

I look at what they do. Not what they say.

Then why even read the post?

(November 19, 2014 at 12:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(November 19, 2014 at 12:04 pm)Khansins Wrote: I would say NO, if we believe that we are automatically Muslims when we are born in Muslim families. We are not born-Muslims just because we are born is a Muslim family as we do not inherit Islam from our parents. It is the education at home, the curriculum at school and the environment that determine whether we are Muslims or not. We are Muslims ONLY IF we understood the meaning of Tawheed and APPLY the meaning. For example, the wife and son of Prophet Noah ‘alaihi salaam were Non-Muslim although they were a son and a wife of a prophet. The son did not inherit Islam from his father. By having a father who is a prophet, mufti or a great Islamic scholar does not make some one becomes Muslim if he himself does not understand the meaning of Tawheed and never apply the meaning.

Well then... why are there muslims who think/believe everyone is born a muslim?
Where did they get that notion?
How does it get propagated?

There are also Muslims who think 'killing' a human is allowed. Every Muslim has different perspective owing to his beliefs. Anyway , I don't know exactly how did that notion get propagated but I know my fellow Muslims thought that since at birth every person is free of sin and pure , he/she is a Muslim. Which of course , is not true.

(November 20, 2014 at 3:33 am)robvalue Wrote: I'm having trouble grasping this whole "becoming a Muslim" thing. You become a Muslim because you pass some sort of test, then someone says you are a Muslim? What gives anyone the right to say who is and isn't a Muslim?

That aspect of it sounds exceptionally cult like to me, nothing to do with religion at all. It sounds divisive and dangerous. (I pretty much equate cults and religions anyway, but they are usually more subtle about it than this.)

It sounds like the leftover from a primitive time when such things might have made sense. I think for free thought and liberty to prevail, this "branding" (as I understand it) needs to go.

If I'm being totally ignorant about it, please correct me. I tried to understand it but it sounds so weird to me.

No One and seriously No one has the right to proclaim himself or other a Muslim. Only Allah Knows the Best. He knows who is a Muslim and one who is not. But Islam has set some rules/principles in order to make it convenient for human beings to understand what being a 'Muslim' means and How to follow 'Muslim' set of conduct and rules. I have a lot of fellow Muslims who proclaim to be Muslims but they decline the principles of Islam on various occasions. In my country, Pakistan , we got a lot of such people !!