When I was a Christian, I thought that freewill was a lovely concept. Of course, the god that I worshiped didn't want his followers to be robots! As I got older, I began to follow some of my ideas to their logical conclusion.

Most Christians will say that their god gave humans free will so that they would freely decide to worship and love him. Awww....who could be upset with that
However, the same free will is responsible for humans doing sometimes unimaginably horrible things to one another.

For a time, I was happy with the answer that a perfect god does not allow evil but that human's free will is the cause of cruelty. Then one day I made the connection. We have free will, according to Christians, because god wants love. That means that babies are raped because god wants love. That is really sick.

After that, I could not believe in the Christian concept of god and that was one of the many things that started my slow movement away from faith.

I was just curious if any of you had considered how twisted the idea of free will and its consequences are?

(November 22, 2014 at 4:25 pm)Nope Wrote: Most Christians will say that their god gave humans free will so that they would freely decide to worship and love him. Awww....who could be upset with that
However, the same free will is responsible for humans doing sometimes unimaginably horrible things to one another.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, for a god that supposedly created humans with free will for this purpose, the god of the old testament, the one closest to that original creation, wasn't so passionate about the concept.

The Old Testament god's first act against Adam and Eve when they exercised their free will was immediate, forcible punishment. Where's the respect for their free will? All they did was choose not to obey god's commands, the same thing that modern christians claim free will is for in the first place. When Lot's wife looked back at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, god immediately turned her into a pillar of salt. Same deal, she should be covered under free will, but she wasn't.

The Amalekites? Dead. Human race too sinful? Death by flood. The binding of Isaac? No care for free will, just do as god says. And these are all examples from the original god's behavior. It's clear that free will wasn't god's original intention, it was an excuse added later when the problem of evil became less tolerable to people, as we got more humane to one another. It's an ad hoc rationalization, not something present in the original text.

(November 22, 2014 at 4:36 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(November 22, 2014 at 4:25 pm)Nope Wrote: Most Christians will say that their god gave humans free will so that they would freely decide to worship and love him. Awww....who could be upset with that
However, the same free will is responsible for humans doing sometimes unimaginably horrible things to one another.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, for a god that supposedly created humans with free will for this purpose, the god of the old testament, the one closest to that original creation, wasn't so passionate about the concept.

The Old Testament god's first act against Adam and Eve when they exercised their free will was immediate, forcible punishment. Where's the respect for their free will? All they did was choose not to obey god's commands, the same thing that modern christians claim free will is for in the first place. When Lot's wife looked back at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, god immediately turned her into a pillar of salt. Same deal, she should be covered under free will, but she wasn't.

The Amalekites? Dead. Human race too sinful? Death by flood. The binding of Isaac? No care for free will, just do as god says. And these are all examples from the original god's behavior. It's clear that free will wasn't god's original intention, it was an excuse added later when the problem of evil became less tolerable to people, as we got more humane to one another. It's an ad hoc rationalization, not something present in the original text.

Those are pretty good points that I had never considered. I often wondered why free will means that god can't show himself to humans today but he could visit with Noah and other Old Testament people.

It also makes no sense that Satan could rebel. If the reason behind free will is for humans to be able to decide freely to love god, why do angels who live in heaven and supposedly see god daily also get free will? If angels don't have free will, how could the Lucifer rebel?

What I hate about the Christians concept of free will, is that you really don't have free will. The Christians free will is a one way street, if through free will we don't want to worship god then we are going to suffer forever in the flames of burning hell, so we have no choice but to worship this maniac.

Why give people free will if you're going to punish them for actually using it? Including things that really don't harm other people, like two people of the same sex falling in love and wanting to be together.

If everything is going to go to crap as soon as sin/disobedience to Yahweh enters the world, why bother including it? It's hard to believe he doesn't want a bunch of robots, when he commands people to do what he wants and any deviation is ground for torture and death.

The only way to make sense of this is that free will was actually an accident. He either didn't mean to give us free will, or misunderstood what giving us free will would actually do.

Some people want to point out all the evil that humans commit? What have we done that Yahweh hasn't also done, or ordered people to do? I know people think he has every right to do whatever he wants, because he made us, but that's not how human society works. We're not going to get rid of child protective services, and put up a law that says parents can do whatever they want with their children, because they made those children.

The problem with free will is one of the oldest problems with the Abrahamic religions, and is not easily concluded. It's just one of many, really.

(November 22, 2014 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Why give people free will if you're going to punish them for actually using it?

Not all choices are between good and evil. You can also choose between various goods. Plus your concept of hell seems to be based on the false idea that people get sent their against their will. And the types of love that free will allows includes mutual love between people. A universe without free will is a universe without voluntary love of any kind.

It's simply another "yeah, but!" thing, like faith. Impossible to prove, so they consider it a win.

"Free will principle" is just an excuse for a deitie's lack of competence.

(November 22, 2014 at 6:39 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Plus your concept of hell seems to be based on the false idea that people get sent their against their will.

I don't want to go to hell, and I'm an atheist. Am I going, or not?

Re OP:

Do you have the free will to hate the concept of free will, or do you only think you are free to hate it?

... Now I have a headache.