(December 22, 2014 at 8:38 am)alpha male Wrote:

(December 21, 2014 at 8:45 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I consider this pretty hard evidence that going to church and being religious does not instil moral values on somebody.

It's not evidence for that at all, unless you can demonstrate that torture and "moral values" are necessarily mutually exclusive. They aren't. Some systems of moral values (e.g. act utilitarianism, a secular system) allow torture.

Apparently their less likely to allow torture however. I don't think there is a more clear cut moral value than being against torture. It doesn't benefit anybody and it fucking tortures someone. It even does long term bad things to the torturer.

(December 22, 2014 at 5:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Now for the last part of your post, trying to apply God's judgment on Christians that's meant for those who refuse to believe don't hold water.

GC

If they are christians and not only going through the motions.

Pity, you will never know, since you simply will wink out like everybody else.

(December 22, 2014 at 5:03 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Apparently their less likely to allow torture however.

Yes, among theists, 3 out of 5 would allow it, while in atheists, 2 out of 5. So, out of representative groups of 5 of each, 4 of the 5 would be in agreement. This isn't the glaring difference that you want it to be.

Quote:I don't think there is a more clear cut moral value than being against torture.

Seriously?!? How about murder? I'm guessing that a survey on murder wouldn't come back 50/50 as the survey on torture did.

Quote:It doesn't benefit anybody and it fucking tortures someone. It even does long term bad things to the torturer.

If information that prevents future harm to innocents is obtained, then those innocents benefit.

(December 22, 2014 at 5:17 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(December 22, 2014 at 5:03 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Apparently their less likely to allow torture however.

Yes, among theists, 3 out of 5 would allow it, while in atheists, 2 out of 5. So, out of representative groups of 5 of each, 4 of the 5 would be in agreement. This isn't the glaring difference that you want it to be.

Quote:I don't think there is a more clear cut moral value than being against torture.

Seriously?!? How about murder? I'm guessing that a survey on murder wouldn't come back 50/50 as the survey on torture did.

Quote:It doesn't benefit anybody and it fucking tortures someone. It even does long term bad things to the torturer.

If information that prevents future harm to innocents is obtained, then those innocents benefit.

You don't need to hit anyone just tie them up and and put a single song on replay for awhile. xD
Hit baby one more time xD.

(December 22, 2014 at 4:51 pm)Nope Wrote:

(December 22, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Godschild Wrote:

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What a ridiculous statement, what Christ was saying Himself and through Paul had to do with individual attacks on Christians because of their beliefs. You yourself pointed out these statements by Christ were to Christians not all Americans, right. Well it so happens we're Americans also, so as an American with an attack on America I would say Christ saying doesn't apply to this situation. Let me ask you this question, do you really believe Christ would not allow us to defend ourselves against mean people who are being plain old mean and, yet allow nonbelievers to protect themselves from the very same people?

GC

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Christians in the United States often use their religion to try to prevent same sex marriage, abortion rights for women and any number of other things. Yet, somehow when we are attacked, they don't think that their bible applies to how the country is run. How do you have it both ways?

We are speaking of what God applies to man, correct. Those things apply to all of mankind, Christians included. So when we try and apply God's commandments to this country it's because we realize that God punishes nations for their disobedience. You've read the OT, you know what happened to the people of Canaan and the Israelites. We see the same thing coming to this nation because of the evil that's becoming lawful in this country. We want to preserve this nation, we do know why we should fear an all powerful God. So you see your problems are not with me they are with God.

Quote:Besides, your problem isn't with me, it is with the bible.
Paul in Romans 12 wrote:
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.…

I have no problem with the Bible, it's not my authority. God the giver is the authority He is who all answer to, not the Bible. The Bible is a study book that leads to the One who cares.
Cute, you think you can turn a verse of service to my fellow man against me. I'm to be a living sacrifice, by giving up the pleasures of the world, defending oneself against mean people and/or my country has nothing to do with these verses. Paul telling us to not think of ourselves higher than others means we are to be humble enough to realize that all need to hear the Gospel of Christ and to show the will of God means we are to show God cares that all are saved. You're trying to inject the physical into the spiritual, you need to learn to differentiate between the two before you try to apply them to others.
You did not answer my question, if you're not just say so.

GC

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(December 22, 2014 at 5:06 pm)abaris Wrote:

(December 22, 2014 at 5:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Now for the last part of your post, trying to apply God's judgment on Christians that's meant for those who refuse to believe don't hold water.

GC

If they are christians and not only going through the motions.

Pity, you will never know, since you simply will wink out like everybody else.

Your opinion holds no water, however my knowledge of God does whether you believe it or not. The infallible God is always right, man has this real nasty habit of failing man.

GC

(December 22, 2014 at 6:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: So you see your problems are not with me they are with God.

GC

But since god's not around to be held accountable and you're obviously his self declared all knowing speaker, the problem falls square back on you.

(December 22, 2014 at 5:53 pm)dyresand Wrote: You don't need to hit anyone just tie them up and and put a single song on replay for awhile. xD
Hit baby one more time xD.

Reminds me of a letter in adult comic Viz, apparently from (iirc) Mrs Sutcliffe, wife of Yorkshire Ripper Peter. She said her favourite song ever is Chas and Dave's "Rabbit". Not all the song, just the chorus bit where they say "rabbit rabbit rabbit" over and over again. She would play that non-stop, full volume, every day. She said it used to drive her husband mad.

(December 22, 2014 at 4:38 pm)Strider Wrote:

(December 22, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Godschild Wrote: What a ridiculous statement, what Christ was saying Himself and through Paul had to do with individual attacks on Christians because of their beliefs. You yourself pointed out these statements by Christ were to Christians not all Americans, right. Well it so happens we're Americans also, so as an American with an attack on America I would say Christ saying doesn't apply to this situation. Let me ask you this question, do you really believe Christ would not allow us to defend ourselves against mean people who are being plain old mean and, yet allow nonbelievers to protect themselves from the very same people?

GC

The topic here is torture, which is wholly different from self-defense. I hope you're not implying that defense is equivalent to torture. I'm going to go out on a limb here (an admittedly long one) and assume that this isn't the case.

You are correct. A verse was put before me that tried to be used against Christians because the one who presented it thought they had a verse that would condemn Christians in there supposed desire for torture.

GC

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(December 22, 2014 at 6:17 pm)abaris Wrote:

(December 22, 2014 at 6:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: So you see your problems are not with me they are with God.

GC

But since god's not around to be held accountable and you're obviously his self declared all knowing speaker, the problem falls square back on you.

You can't hold a higher being accountable for anything, read the book of Job, the answer is there multiple times. There were verse just posted that stated Christians were to speak out.
You're like a small child playing tag, saying no,no,no I touched you last, grow up.

GC

(December 22, 2014 at 6:22 pm)Godschild Wrote: You can't hold a higher being accountable for anything, read the book of Job, the answer is there multiple times. There were verse just posted that stated Christians were to speak out.
You're like a small child playing tag, saying no,no,no I touched you last, grow up.

GC

No, you're the one claiming to be an all knowing being when it comes to god. You hold the one and only truth and ultimate authority, that's how your posts come over. Don't you see how ridiculous this is? You're a human being voicing opinions like the rest of us. There's nothing behind these opinion other than a single book which you interpret in a way to suit your personal needs.

Well, newsflash, there are 40.000 christian denominations in this world, all claiming to hold the single truth. And there are even more other beliefs than yours, who again think to be in possession of the truth.

Your entitled to your opinion, but if you assume the posture of authority, you deserve nothing but mockery.

Quote:You are correct. A verse was put before me that tried to be used against Christians because the one who presented it thought they had a verse that would condemn Christians in there supposed desire for torture.

GC

I do not think that you are representative of all Christians so no, I wasn't trying to condemn Christians. The desire for torture goes against what Jesus taught. You might not like that but it does. As far as Job, I thought that Christians followed the New Testament.


You mentioned in another post that you asked a question. Could you rewrite it?