(December 29, 2014 at 6:36 pm)JesusChristLover Wrote: I was a (born) Atheist and turned Christian when I reached the age to reason.

That's the "age of reason" but I appreciate your restraint in not having claimed to actually have attained it.

(December 29, 2014 at 6:36 pm)JesusChristLover Wrote: I was a (born) Atheist and turned Christian when I reached the age to reason.

So what motivated you to convert to Christianity, and how did you convince yourself that Christianity is sensible and true?

(December 29, 2014 at 6:36 pm)JesusChristLover Wrote: I was a (born) Atheist and turned Christian when I reached the age to reason.

I have to admit, I've never known any atheist who became a Christian. Although I've heard of it. I've witnessed agnostics become Christians!

My take on this subject is that we all start life as an agnostic. And (for a % of us) either through experience or suggestion tip to one direction or the other. I believe most of the world, are agnostic. Just for the fact that if people who called themselves religious actually when to church/temple/mosque etc... there would be lines around the globe to get in!

I prefer to debate w/ aggies. Not because they are less confrontational than there more decided "cousins".... but for their open-mindedness on "personal" experiences. Of course I'm speaking in generalities. And I'm using my father and brother, (an atheist and agnostic respectively) as my major source.

My brother will listen intently to all religious arguments, and witnessed events and miracles! My dad on the other hand eye's start to glaze, and is formulating a response before any information has had a chance to enter his brain. In the end they both want more proof. But, my brother is "using" ALL information received. My dad couldn't tell you what my last statement was... just "buzz words" that give him ammo for his next assault!

Whats really interesting is to watch them "debate". My brother (aggie) is very mutable in a good way, in his stance. When they go at it, I keep my mouth shut and ears open! My dad is super intelligent...to his fault! Everything is measured, calculated and in order. His problem is that he gets heated during a debate w/ either of us. And that's when he breaks down! At times my brother puts up a better argument for God than I do! LOL!

He (my dad) uses his life experience and knowledge to demerit God. And I don't need to explain this here! But it resorts to: "If there is a God, this life (as it is) makes no logical sense to me!" aka: "babies dying in Africa", "Tsunamis killing 200k people", "his mom (my grandma) dying young of cancer"...etc.

Whats interesting is.... My brother and I agree, that just because life "as it is" doesn't square-up for him ..... does it really mean there is no God?

When the argument finally stops, around 3am... I usually ask him & my bro "if" there is a God, and they meet Him what would happen?

It gets interesting again! They both have "questions", they want Him to answer!

Alas... I smile hug them both and we all trail off into the sunrise. Them believing they've put doubt in me to some extent. And me realizing just how far they are away from God, Spiritually, and knowing His ways. And its been like this for years! I don't fault them. Or anyone. The important thing is Love for one another. God will take care of everything else!

Sorry to run on... just thought it may be interesting to hear the Catholic, Atheist an Aggie in a boat story!

(December 29, 2014 at 6:36 pm)JesusChristLover Wrote: I was a (born) Atheist and turned Christian when I reached the age to reason.

Is that when you realized papa spanks like a champ and when you do everything he says the first time 'me no get hurt' ?

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote:

(December 29, 2014 at 6:36 pm)JesusChristLover Wrote: I was a (born) Atheist and turned Christian when I reached the age to reason.

I have to admit, I've never known any atheist who became a Christian. Although I've heard of it. I've witnessed agnostics become Christians!

My take on this subject is that we all start life as an agnostic. And (for a % of us) either through experience or suggestion tip to one direction or the other. I believe most of the world, are agnostic. Just for the fact that if people who called themselves religious actually when to church/temple/mosque etc... there would be lines around the globe to get in!

I prefer to debate w/ aggies. Not because they are less confrontational than there more decided "cousins".... but for their open-mindedness on "personal" experiences. Of course I'm speaking in generalities. And I'm using my father and brother, (an atheist and agnostic respectively) as my major source.

My brother will listen intently to all religious arguments, and witnessed events and miracles! My dad on the other hand eye's start to glaze, and is formulating a response before any information has had a chance to enter his brain. In the end they both want more proof. But, my brother is "using" ALL information received. My dad couldn't tell you what my last statement was... just "buzz words" that give him ammo for his next assault!

Whats really interesting is to watch them "debate". My brother (aggie) is very mutable in a good way, in his stance. When they go at it, I keep my mouth shut and ears open! My dad is super intelligent...to his fault! Everything is measured, calculated and in order. His problem is that he gets heated during a debate w/ either of us. And that's when he breaks down! At times my brother puts up a better argument for God than I do! LOL!

He (my dad) uses his life experience and knowledge to demerit God. And I don't need to explain this here! But it resorts to: "If there is a God, this life (as it is) makes no logical sense to me!" aka: "babies dying in Africa", "Tsunamis killing 200k people", "his mom (my grandma) dying young of cancer"...etc.

Whats interesting is.... My brother and I agree, that just because life "as it is" doesn't square-up for him ..... does it really mean there is no God?

When the argument finally stops, around 3am... I usually ask him & my bro "if" there is a God, and they meet Him what would happen?

It gets interesting again! They both have "questions", they want Him to answer!

Alas... I smile hug them both and we all trail off into the sunrise. Them believing they've put doubt in me to some extent. And me realizing just how far they are away from God, Spiritually, and knowing His ways. And its been like this for years! I don't fault them. Or anyone. The important thing is Love for one another. God will take care of everything else!

Sorry to run on... just thought it may be interesting to hear the Catholic, Atheist an Aggie in a boat story!

So who do you feel you have more in common with: your brother who at least does not outright reject God .. or .. your father who is as certain regarding his position as you are regarding your own?

Maybe you should work your way toward being a Christian agnostic. You know, hold your god-beleif by faith with no over-reaching claims you can't back up. Or maybe you do already count yourself as agnostic to some degree?

I have noticed that Christians make a huge distinction between agnostic and atheist. When I talk to Christians on forums, they often tell me that I'm an agnostic instead of an atheist. Atheist seems to imply hostility to God in the mind of Christians. Being an atheist is the worst thing imaginable in the opinion of many Christians.

(December 30, 2014 at 8:39 am)watchamadoodle Wrote: I have noticed that Christians make a huge distinction between agnostic and atheist. When I talk to Christians on forums, they often tell me that I'm an agnostic instead of an atheist. Atheist seems to imply hostility to God in the mind of Christians. Being an atheist is the worst thing imaginable in the opinion of many Christians.

Yes they do, but we've had it a million times - that's a nonsensical position. Atheists will hardly be hostile against something they do not believe exists...
Also, according to the definition I use, I can be an atheist and an agnostic at the same time.

(December 29, 2014 at 6:36 pm)JesusChristLover Wrote: I was a (born) Atheist and turned Christian when I reached the age to reason.

You mean the official age of reason, like 12? You didn't believe God was real until you were 12?

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(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote:

(December 29, 2014 at 6:36 pm)JesusChristLover Wrote: I was a (born) Atheist and turned Christian when I reached the age to reason.

I have to admit, I've never known any atheist who became a Christian. Although I've heard of it. I've witnessed agnostics become Christians!

Hi, ronedee, glad to see you're still around. I'm a contrarian on the 'born atheist' thing. The suffix '-ist' denotes a person with at least some interest concerning a particular thing. So I'm not in the camp that calls babies and dogs and rocks, 'atheists'. Which is rather an aside from me agreeing with you that people who identify as agnostics are more likely to convert.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: My take on this subject is that we all start life as an agnostic.

I think 'agnostic' denotes some sort of awareness of what is not known, so no baby agnostics, either. But I take it you mean that we start with no opinions formed yet, and I'm with you on that.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: And (for a % of us) either through experience or suggestion tip to one direction or the other. I believe most of the world, are agnostic.

That could well be true. It's hard to justify 100% certainty on things that can't be proven one way or the other.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: Just for the fact that if people who called themselves religious actually when to church/temple/mosque etc... there would be lines around the globe to get in!

If we go by attendance instead of self-identification, you definitely have a point.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: I prefer to debate w/ aggies. Not because they are less confrontational than there more decided "cousins".... but for their open-mindedness on "personal" experiences. Of course I'm speaking in generalities. And I'm using my father and brother, (an atheist and agnostic respectively) as my major source.

At least you have first-hand sources, and not just what your priest told you about us.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: My brother will listen intently to all religious arguments, and witnessed events and miracles! My dad on the other hand eye's start to glaze, and is formulating a response before any information has had a chance to enter his brain. In the end they both want more proof. But, my brother is "using" ALL information received. My dad couldn't tell you what my last statement was... just "buzz words" that give him ammo for his next assault!

Maybe he's considering the likelihood that such anecdotes actually constitute 'evidence' or 'information'. My father and step-mother inundate me with miracle stories every time I visit. If their plan was to convince me they're more wrong than I already thought, they couldn't do better. Not once has one of their stories that had enough to go on to check out stood up under scrutiny, and most of the rest don't even hold up under their own weight. What their approach convinces me of is that they'll believe anything, so long as it fits in with what they already believe. They're ruined for me considering them a reliable source on such matters, because I know they're standards of evidence are 'believe first, ask questions never'. I wish my parents understood and respected me enough to at least try a different approach.

But you know your own dad better than anyone here, maybe he's just argumentative, as you seem to be indicating. I may be over-empathizing with the eyes-glazing over thing.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: Whats really interesting is to watch them "debate". My brother (aggie) is very mutable in a good way, in his stance. When they go at it, I keep my mouth shut and ears open! My dad is super intelligent...to his fault! Everything is measured, calculated and in order.

My experience has been that when people consider someone 'intelligent to a fault', they disagree with the person's conclusions without being able to refute them. Perhaps his actual fault lies elsewhere.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: His problem is that he gets heated during a debate w/ either of us. And that's when he breaks down!

Because he's short-tempered or because he's frustrated at trying to discuss something with someone shose stance is 'mutable' except in regards to disagreeing with your father? There isn't a good way to be 'mutable' in a debate. Position-shifting is a dishonest tactic, or at least a sign that one of the people involved doesn't even know what their own position is, or is unwilling to defend the belief they actually hold.

Of course, you were there and I wasn't. Just trying to empathize with your father as an atheist in hopes of giving you some insight. I could be completely off-base.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: At times my brother puts up a better argument for God than I do! LOL!

That's a slow ball, and I'm going to let it go by out of pride in my batting ability.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: He (my dad) uses his life experience and knowledge to demerit God. And I don't need to explain this here! But it resorts to: "If there is a God, this life (as it is) makes no logical sense to me!" aka: "babies dying in Africa", "Tsunamis killing 200k people", "his mom (my grandma) dying young of cancer"...etc.

Of course that's only a problem for the God of theodicy: all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good. The current pope seems to acknowledge a God who works within nature, so not completely all-powerful. That version of God might address those particular objections.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: Whats interesting is.... My brother and I agree, that just because life "as it is" doesn't square-up for him ..... does it really mean there is no God?

No, it doesn't. It's only an argument against the God of theodicy. If that's not the God you believe in, it's all good. If it is the God you believe in, your father has made a point that really needs addressing if you want your belief to be reasonably justified.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: When the argument finally stops, around 3am... I usually ask him & my bro "if" there is a God, and they meet Him what would happen?

You instigator!

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: It gets interesting again! They both have "questions", they want Him to answer!

Alas... I smile hug them both and we all trail off into the sunrise. Them believing they've put doubt in me to some extent. And me realizing just how far they are away from God, Spiritually, and knowing His ways. And its been like this for years! I don't fault them. Or anyone. The important thing is Love for one another. God will take care of everything else!

Sorry to run on... just thought it may be interesting to hear the Catholic, Atheist an Aggie in a boat story!

Any story that ends with hugs can't be all bad.

(December 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm)ronedee Wrote: He (my dad) uses his life experience and knowledge to demerit God. And I don't need to explain this here! But it resorts to: "If there is a God, this life (as it is) makes no logical sense to me!" aka: "babies dying in Africa", "Tsunamis killing 200k people", "his mom (my grandma) dying young of cancer"...etc.

That never even entered my consideration on my way to becoming an atheist. I have been a catholic also, though never a devout one. It was more or less the tradition that kept me there and I never gave it much thought when growing up.

What ultimately drove me away for good were the logical fallacies such as, why would god wait 4,5 billion years to make himself known? Or the trinity, which pretty much amounts to god sacrificing himself to the third part of himself. That pretty much did it and I can't imagine going back to any scripted religion, since to the best of my knowledge and the evidence speaking against them, they're flat out man made and wrong.

(December 26, 2014 at 5:29 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Different in respect of viability. Rather unshakeable viability. Therefore it is reasonable to hold belief in the proposition that God exists.

Your god is no less magical, nor any less ridiculous.