(December 30, 2014 at 4:57 pm)Strider Wrote: I agree with the statement as fact, but probably not with your point if I'm interpreting it correctly.

Are you suggesting that the biblical admonishments regarding worthlessness and guilt are valid because some people are sick and twisted?

Yep. You noted Christianity in particular, but many atheists believe that most religions are evil. If most religions are evil, and most people have belonged to a religion, that means people are generally evil.

To his credit, Brian37 is arguing a similar point in another thread.

(December 30, 2014 at 5:18 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(December 30, 2014 at 4:57 pm)Strider Wrote: I agree with the statement as fact, but probably not with your point if I'm interpreting it correctly.

Are you suggesting that the biblical admonishments regarding worthlessness and guilt are valid because some people are sick and twisted?

Yep. You noted Christianity in particular, but many atheists believe that most religions are evil. If most religions are evil, and most people have belonged to a religion, that means people are generally evil.

To his credit, Brian37 is arguing a similar point in another thread.

Because religion pretty much is evil. Abrahamic is the most evil religion out there. There is peaceful ones and i mean truly peaceful ones. Yet the Abrahamic religions claim to be peaceful but they are not. Religion is evil for the fact it is the driving force of most of humanity's main wars. Sure there is other wars for political reasons but most is fought over dogma. The others issues with religion is the fanatics and extremists who think they are doing gods work when they are indeed crazy. So why is religion evil? and how does it really do good for mankind...

(December 30, 2014 at 5:18 pm)alpha male Wrote: Yep. You noted Christianity in particular, but many atheists believe that most religions are evil.

No, it's what people tend to make of religions that is evil. They take books, written some thousands years ago to be literal words of one or the other god. And that line of thinking leads to be comfortable or apologetic towards atrocities and the condemnation of certain social groups. It also leads to proudly flaunting ignorance as if it were a virtue. Bronze and early iron age standards are taken into the 21st century and science is viewed as a conspiracy theory since it contradicts the bible. Actually, these are the people I personally have the biggest problems with, since they try to poison the well for all of us by sneaking ther religious views into the educational system.

To tell the truth, it's not all the christians. In fact most of the christians don't take the bible literally and I certainly have no problem with them or their religion.

(December 30, 2014 at 5:23 pm)dyresand Wrote: Because religion pretty much is evil. Abrahamic is the most evil religion out there. There is peaceful ones and i mean truly peaceful ones. Yet the Abrahamic religions claim to be peaceful but they are not. Religion is evil for the fact it is the driving force of most of humanity's main wars. Sure there is other wars for political reasons but most is fought over dogma. The others issues with religion is the fanatics and extremists who think they are doing gods work when they are indeed crazy. So why is religion evil? and how does it really do good for mankind...

If your assessment is correct, then apparently humans are evil, as from an atheist perspective humans must have invented religion.

Yet, OP criticizes Christianity for teaching that people are evil.

(December 30, 2014 at 5:28 pm)alpha male Wrote: If your assessment is correct, then apparently humans are evil, as from an atheist perspective humans must have invented religion.

Yet, OP criticizes Christianity for teaching that people are evil.

Again, it's about taking the bible or any holy book literally. The bible, since this is the book I've actually read, is filled with ancient myths and sagas to make the Hebrew people look good. But what was morally OK 3000 years ago, isn't OK by todays standards. So, no, people aren't evil in themselves. We just evolved to a higher standard than what the people writing the bible knew at their time. The book however didn't evolve and still flaunts bronze age behavioral code of a certain region.

(December 30, 2014 at 5:18 pm)alpha male Wrote: Yep. You noted Christianity in particular, but many atheists believe that most religions are evil. If most religions are evil, and most people have belonged to a religion, that means people are generally evil.

To his credit, Brian37 is arguing a similar point in another thread.

I thought so but I wanted to ask in case I misinterpreted what you were implying.

True, I did note Christianity in particular. The kind of self-loathing and guilt associated with Christianity is quite unique though. I don't believe that religion is evil (though ignorant isn't too far off the mark) so I reject the notion that people are generally evil. Evil is an abstract concept anyway, the rough idea of which is interpreted, described, and dealt with in various ways from culture to culture and religion to religion. The characteristics of a person have to do with genetics, upbringing, economic status, nationality, ethnicity, and other factors, some of which are changeable and others not; how a person turns out in life has nothing to do with being born into this mystical idea of original sin and wickedness.

Though many religious teachings are noxious, I certainly believe that this particular message associated with Christianity has the capacity to be psychologically damaging. The assertion that a person isn't worthy of love is rather vile, and I find this implied sense of worthlessness equally repugnant. A person has worth simply by existing, even the bad ones.

Quote: If most religions are evil, and most people have belonged to a religion, that means people are generally evil.

Pretty much.

Quote:Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg

(December 30, 2014 at 5:28 pm)alpha male Wrote: If your assessment is correct, then apparently humans are evil, as from an atheist perspective humans must have invented religion.

Only if you think of religion as this simplistic, instantaneous accretion of ideas, which it isn't. Factually speaking, religions are cumulative; ideas and concepts are added and subtracted and changed within them all the time, and from different people too. They split, and reform, come together and apart, ideas change over time, become lost and sometimes found again, and at no time can the definitive original intent of the movement ever be found.

Humans invented religion, but there's no need to think that they started out with all the evil in them pre-existing. More likely it got added in over time, the same as any other religious concept, as individual evil people or groups added more ideas for their own benefit to the pot. If anything, religion is a testament to how good intentions can become warped, or to the dangers of interpreting select people as the conduits of divine power and bestowing them with an authority that may not be questioned.

In the end, some people are good, and some people are evil. Religions tend to be geared toward authoritarian dictations, and so those smart enough and willing enough to take advantage tend to gravitate toward them, but they aren't the only advocates of religion, nor are the contributions of religion solely negative. Your logic here is not only flawed, it's breathtakingly simplistic.

Quote:Yet, OP criticizes Christianity for teaching that people are evil.

Even if your logic actually worked, the best you would be saying is that christianity should be absolved of making a bad situation worse, because the situation was already bad.

(December 30, 2014 at 3:41 pm)dyresand Wrote: I see the problem with Abrahamic religions it teaches you than you are trash and worthless.
You are loved by god and you must love god more than yourself and hate everyone.
The issues with this and this is why people "cherry pick" is to loose the bad parts.
The issue comes down to it is i see is that the mind set of people who follow this believe
they are terrible deep down inside but wont say it. It makes people devalue their lives
to a point where they just want to die and go to heaven... all in all Abrahamic religions
are just death cults.

I ask again, what color is the sky in your world.

GC

(December 30, 2014 at 6:43 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(December 30, 2014 at 3:41 pm)dyresand Wrote: I see the problem with Abrahamic religions it teaches you than you are trash and worthless.
You are loved by god and you must love god more than yourself and hate everyone.
The issues with this and this is why people "cherry pick" is to loose the bad parts.
The issue comes down to it is i see is that the mind set of people who follow this believe
they are terrible deep down inside but wont say it. It makes people devalue their lives
to a point where they just want to die and go to heaven... all in all Abrahamic religions
are just death cults.

I ask again, what color is the sky in your world.

GC

All Christianity really teaches you is how you are a worthless person and a sinner piece of trash. You don't have to be if you kiss gods ass and repent. The whole idea of sin is man made. And that no one does good because they are not doing it for god is also stupid. So the people who do good and are not doing it for god are bad, but people who only do good because of god are "good" because god is stamped on it. There is some real moral issues with that.