They'll just find that they're as wrong about themselves as they are about a god. I imagine that those people would embarrass the shit out of me if I were a religionist.

(December 30, 2014 at 6:38 pm)sagersager1 Wrote: I understand and I know you are concerned mainly with truth, but speaking hypothetically, what do you think? I suppose there are better questions, I'm not sure how to word it, just a poor question in some sense.

I think I can't say anything hypothetically because I have no viable hypothetical scenario yet. Society and the human psyche are too complicated.

(December 30, 2014 at 6:07 pm)sagersager1 Wrote: “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

Just curious about this. I have had multiple arguments where I use this, although it is argued back that;

"Although not in the name of atheism, secular people can do wrong acts too" and "Good people do evil acts as well, so what's your point?"

What do people think about these counter arguments?

None of the arguments are worth a thing until you define good person, evil person, good thing, and evil thing. When you do that, the initial argument tends to fall apart.

Also the converse is missing from the initial argument, i.e., can relgion also cause evil people to do good things?

In the end this argument is catchy but has no real merit.

(December 31, 2014 at 8:36 am)alpha male Wrote: Also the converse is missing from the initial argument, i.e., can relgion also cause evil people to do good things?

I think it can, absolutely. The greatest selfish assholes can feel compelled to give to the poor if the get inspired by Jeysus or thrats of Hell from Skydaddy...

The argument is summed up best for me in this quote from Pat Condell, a man with whom I don't always agree but who does sometimes hit the nail right where it hurts: "Religion is the perfect umbrella for the psychopath."

In other words, whether you strap on a bomb or call for the dehumanising of people you don't like, do it in the name of religion and suddenly you're a wise man, the voice of authority. Religion isn't the only way to motivate people's hatred, greed and bigotry, but it's one of the quickest and most certain. Most likely that's why it hasn't died off nor is it likely ever to do so, as long as it remains useful.

(December 31, 2014 at 8:36 am)alpha male Wrote: Also the converse is missing from the initial argument, i.e., can relgion also cause evil people to do good things?

My own personal assessment leads me to believe that religion can cause:
Good people to do good things.
Good people to do bad things.
Bad people to do good things.
Bad people to do bad things.

It also seems that lack of religion, or "non" religion, can cause:
Good people to do good things.
Good people to do bad things.
Bad people to do good things.
Bad people to do bad things.

It would appear a lot of this has more to do with human nature than our belief. So where does religion hold power of good over non-religion? Where can we 'do good' when only religion is involved?

(December 30, 2014 at 6:24 pm)sagersager1 Wrote: I suppose one could say to the counter arguments that, "Sure, good people can do evil things, but if we take religion out, one could wager that evil acts would go down tremendously."

What do you think of this?

Edit: then again, a common premise is that "religion is used as a mask for evil deeds." Ugh...

It's impossible to offer anything more than conjecture to that question. Religion has existed as long as recorded history so no one can say what would or could occur without it.

I'm just going to say that according to "private logic" people will continue to do whatever they want to and justify it in various ways. Religion is just convenient.

If you're up for some reading, here's a somewhat watered down wiki article:

Direct your search to "Private Logic"

After reflecting a moment, private logic seems to mimic Strider's assessment of Christianity. (And my opinion of most mainstream religions)

Thanks for the reading, it does seem that for some people, using religion as an "umbrella" for their crazies is true. What is aggravating however, is those that say the only time religion does something wrong is when a crazy person is using it to justify their reasoning, but every time religion does something good, they are following the word of god.

Off the main topic for a moment, I wonder what you guys think about religion and superiority? It's a bit off topic but someone brought it up as a point against me before. Basically, they are trying to make the point that religion may not be the full result of brainwashing per se, it's that superiority was the primary reasoning for starting many of the wars, slaughters, and even some of the social issues we have in modern society (gay marriage, abortion, etc). I do agree that superiority shouldn't be ruled out as a factor, but from my own personal experience, as Hitchens put it, "the need to be sheep" ie - authority, and brainwashing, were the primary reasons for the cause of a lot of shit.

(December 30, 2014 at 6:43 pm)dyresand Wrote: The people who scare me are the ones who say i only do good because of god and if i didn't have god i would be a killer and a rapist.
Those are the people who need some real help because if they ever find out god is not real oh man....

Generally if they find out God is not real, they realize they're not as interested in killing and raping as they thought they would be.