Yes. Indoctrination in this context is child abuse. To force "belief" and such an allergy to logic on a young mind is extremely socially and psychologically damaging.

My wife and I have decided our children will be educated on the various social/religious/and political groups, and given the skills to come to their own decision.

And yes, I would support that being made into law. But it would take complicated legal maneuvering to work around american's freedom of religion.

Quote: To force "belief" and such an allergy to logic on a young mind is extremely socially and psychologically damaging.

Citation please....

I don't think outlawing church attendance for kids would achieve anything much. The abuse is personal, although drip fed from above.

I hate the system where no one can have an opinion. In my local small town, the midwives were fantastic. They'd give you good solid advice and opinion, based upon experience. At the city hospital where we ended up the nurses were so frightened, obviously driven by litany, that they plain refused to give you any advice.

There's a point, boringly as usual, where common sense prevails. Enabling local determination with broader controls.

(January 5, 2015 at 9:01 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

Quote: To force "belief" and such an allergy to logic on a young mind is extremely socially and psychologically damaging.

Citation please....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_crisis

Honestly this is kind of a "duh" moment. Scaring children into compliance with hell is terrible just on the face of it.

Edit: Presently at work, posting using my phone. So I'm not in my Library and able to cite any better sources.

I'm leaning to Jacob's view of the problem... I don't think legislation would be good for either party.
Indoctrination has little to do with church attendance... it's something that gets ingrained at home... church only serves to cement the belief after it has taken root.

I recently posted about a teen suicide, a girl who took her life because she thought she was letting God down. Indoctrination much. We had another member recently who told his story where he was also at the point of suicide before somehow realising it was all bullshit. Armoured skeptic from YouTube actually tried to kill himself to get to heaven.

These ingrained "truths" about gods judgement affect actions, sometimes fatally.

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My point about church is that there is zero reason for a young child to be there other than to reinforce indoctrination. They are too young to understand what is going on, or to comprehend the dog and pony show being put on which is sending bad messages to them. It's not appropriate for young children, in my opinion.

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Thanks for the feedback though, and I respect the fact that some of you do not agree with me

(January 5, 2015 at 9:39 am)robvalue Wrote: I recently posted about a teen suicide, a girl who took her life because she thought she was letting God down. Indoctrination much. We had another member recently who told his story where he was also at the point of suicide before somehow realising it was all bullshit. Armoured skeptic from YouTube actually tried to kill himself to get to heaven.

Yes... and many atheists get too depressed at the lack of purpose for their lives and also commit suicide... should we outlaw atheism?
Or outlaw depression?
Or outlaw life's purpose?

Indoctrination is not done in church... the church helps with a few nudges, yes... but the main part, the one that drives people to suicide attempts, comes from family.

Yeah, I would like to stop both. I don't want family's indoctrinating their children at home. I did say this originally. The church part is just a further tool for them to do this. I'm not nearly as fussed about stopping the church part, that's just another bugbear. Just I can't see why else they would be there as young children except for extra indoctrination.

Sure, people kill themselves for other reasons. But I don't think it's fair to say that this girl would have killed herself anyway. She's been given another needless criteria to worry about, as well as the rest of life's pressures.

I agree, there are regular stories from ex-believers about the horrors of their indoctrination and consequent battle to be rid of it. How many of these do we need to read before we accept that it is a problem?

http://valerietarico.com/2013/03/26/reli...s-it-real/

It is abuse, albeit not intentioned abuse and not so immediately apparent as other forms of abuse. It only appears okay if the recipient continues their life believing in god and dies in that same ignorant bliss. If they choose to fight that indoctrination then the depth of mental abuse shows itself.

Maybe we could have the opinions of some more child indoctrinated ex theists on whether they think it's abuse or not. I'll go with what they say.

(January 5, 2015 at 9:39 am)robvalue Wrote: I recently posted about a teen suicide, a girl who took her life because she thought she was letting God down. Indoctrination much. We had another member recently who told his story where he was also at the point of suicide before somehow realising it was all bullshit. Armoured skeptic from YouTube actually tried to kill himself to get to heaven.

These ingrained "truths" about gods judgement affect actions, sometimes fatally.

---

My point about church is that there is zero reason for a young child to be there other than to reinforce indoctrination. They are too young to understand what is going on, or to comprehend the dog and pony show being put on which is sending bad messages to them. It's not appropriate for young children, in my opinion.

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Thanks for the feedback though, and I respect the fact that some of you do not agree with me

While the DSM doesn't directly call religion a disorder, there is a huge correlation between religion and psychiatric problems. And injecting this shit right at key developmental points is often intentional. Religious leaders know this. Jesus knew it:
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

How it is not obvious to any sane adult how damaging indoctrination is to children is beyond me. It's well within the realm of common sense.