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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 6:12 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 6:13 pm by Simon Moon.)
(January 27, 2015 at 5:53 pm)bob96 Wrote: A scientist who believes in evolution is obviously never going to come to the conclusion that anything he find is evidence against evolution. The point is that evolution is a highly subjective science.
Yeah, because no scientist ever wants to become world famous by overturning a major scientific theory.
Winning the Nobel for biology, and the prize money and the recognition that goes along with it must really suck.
So, bob, you trying to break some kind of 'unsupported assertion' record?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 6:18 pm
I don't see why it is confusing to you all that a book largely containing God's interaction with men might contain miracles. If God does something, it is not a result of a natural process: therefore supernatural, and that is the definition of a miracle.
So far I have heard creation. There is a huge body of discussion on whether Gen 1 is literal or not. Perhaps, as Augustine wrote that God planted the seeds...perhaps not. Either way, when and if science proves something, then we will know for certain. I am not going to debate on evolution because it does not matter to the question of the existence of God.
Related to that, Genesis or the OT is not to be taken as a science text. The genealogies are not complete. Perhaps the ancient Jews did not care about sections that did not concern their stories or their histories. No one thought that the earth was resting on pillars or that the mountains held up the sky.
The OT is useful to teach us about God. In spite of your mocking, Augustine has the right attitude when looking at the OT. Standing too firm on a scientific or historical position that does not "prejudice the faith" runs the risk of "falling with it" when it is proved otherwise. Standing too firmly on an issue also leads to a fear of being wrong--which is not the right approach. We should embrace the search for the truth.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 6:25 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 6:27 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 27, 2015 at 6:18 pm)SteveII Wrote: I don't see why it is confusing to you all that a book largely containing God's interaction with men might contain miracles. If God does something, it is not a result of a natural process: You know this how?
Quote: therefore supernatural, and that is the definition of a miracle.
So...just for clarity...you did realize, before asking the question...and as you asked the question....that there were plenty of easy examples, right?
Quote:So far I have heard creation. There is a huge body of discussion on whether Gen 1 is literal or not. Perhaps, as Augustine wrote that God planted the seeds...perhaps not.
There's no perhaps, and it's a "not".
Quote:Either way, when and if science proves something, then we will know for certain. I am not going to debate on evolution because it does not matter to the question of the existence of God.
Science isn't in the proving business. You'll be waiting a hell of a long time.
Quote:We should embrace the search for the truth.
Agreed. The search for truth seems to have lead you to the conclusion that some portions of the bible simply aren't true. You don't wonder about the other parts?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 6:26 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 6:18 pm)SteveII Wrote: I don't see why it is confusing to you all that a book largely containing God's interaction with men might contain miracles. If God does something, it is not a result of a natural process: therefore supernatural, and that is the definition of a miracle.
Which is very convenient for you, I'm sure. But you don't get to define something as "something for which objective proof is impossible," and expect that to act as a rational reason to believe. If you can't provide evidence for the existence of miracles, then miracles are a claim that the bible makes that does not mesh with science.
Quote:So far I have heard creation. There is a huge body of discussion on whether Gen 1 is literal or not. Perhaps, as Augustine wrote that God planted the seeds...perhaps not. Either way, when and if science proves something, then we will know for certain. I am not going to debate on evolution because it does not matter to the question of the existence of God.
Evolution does matter to the question of whether the bible's claims all mesh with science, however, in that it fully shows that at least a few of the bible's claims regarding creation are false. As evolution is a verified and observed scientific fact, we can know for certain that the creation account as given in the bible is wrong.
Your response to that is just some mumbling about how the bible doesn't mean what the words say, which I mentioned before is a pathetic and baseless reply.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 6:29 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 6:18 pm)SteveII Wrote: I don't see why it is confusing to you all that a book largely containing God's interaction with men might contain miracles. If God does something, it is not a result of a natural process: therefore supernatural, and that is the definition of a miracle.
Who's confused? When I read the Iliad, which also contains stories of the gods' interactions with men, I do so with precisely the same degree of credulity I use when reading most of the stories in the Bible -- that is, none. That's a difference between us. But I don't think the confusion is on my end.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 6:36 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 5:53 pm)bob96 Wrote: (January 27, 2015 at 5:45 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: But you used his quote as an example of one the 'problems' you have with evolution, when the scientist himself that you're quoting doesn't even imply that it is a problem at all.
What was the point of quoting him at all? What exactly were you trying to say?
A scientist who believes in evolution is obviously never going to come to the conclusion that anything he find is evidence against evolution. The point is that evolution is a highly subjective science.
Utter nonsense.
If a scientist could disprove evolutionary theory there would be fame, a Nobel Prize and fortune to be made. Science is a very competitive field.
So far, despite the claims of creationists, evolution has not been disproved.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 6:39 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 6:18 pm)SteveII Wrote: I don't see why it is confusing to you all that a book largely containing God's interaction with men might contain miracles. If God does something, it is not a result of a natural process: therefore supernatural, and that is the definition of a miracle.
Great. Now all you need to do is present some of these supernatural miracles that are known to happen/have happened in reality.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 6:39 pm
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 7:14 pm by Simon Moon.)
(January 27, 2015 at 6:18 pm)SteveII Wrote: I don't see why it is confusing to you all that a book largely containing God's interaction with men might contain miracles. If God does something, it is not a result of a natural process: therefore supernatural, and that is the definition of a miracle.
What evidence do you have for any of this?
The Bible is not evidence, it is the claim.
Quote:I am not going to debate on evolution because it does not matter to the question of the existence of God.
True.
Whether or not a god exists is a question that requires evidence and reasoned argument. Got any?
Quote:We should embrace the search for the truth.
Very true.
But what do you think is the best path to truth, if not demonstrable evidence and valid/sound logic?
Faith certainly is not effective.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 7:58 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 6:18 pm)SteveII Wrote: Standing too firmly on an issue also leads to a fear of being wrong--which is not the right approach. We should embrace the search for the truth. Good, So you are agnostic! Congrats! Welcome! We salute you. 
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 27, 2015 at 8:04 pm
Hell, he's halfway on our roster, aint he?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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