That's right. It's the default position. You don't believe any claim until you have examined the evidence for that claim and found it sufficient. It's that or be so gullible as to believe anything.

For God, I suppose people object to the request of evidence because it's so fucking obvious there isn't any beyond hand waving.

(February 1, 2015 at 11:39 am)Blackout Wrote: So my question is - Don't atheists have the burden of evidence as well when we make claims?

Yes, if you make a claim to knowledge, it is reasonable to expect you to back it up with something, because you are saying that you know something to be true. So it makes sense that you would be expected to explain how you know.

(February 1, 2015 at 12:31 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(February 1, 2015 at 12:26 pm)Blackout Wrote: But atheists can make positive claims; you may not assert that gods don't exist, but you can assert, for example, that someone's religion is false, that religion is bad, or that believing in god is illogical. You have to provide proof.

As for the definition of atheism, it is the positive assertion that gods do not exist or the rejection of god claims (for me) so the agnostic principle doesn't apply always.

That is not the definition of atheism, because its a response to a claim.

For me it is. Saying atheism is just a lack of belief in gods is begging the minimal standards. However, being a strong atheist doesn't make me more or less of an atheist, I'm still an atheist - It's not another position, it's not a different sect of beliefs or a religion; it's as simple as having different opinions on what being an atheist means.

I am not saying that you can't be an atheist if you just lack belief in gods, but that's not the definition everyone uses - In my case, being an atheist means positively rejecting the existence of gods (and the supernatural). You can say that you are an atheist because you lack positive belief in gods, but you shouldn't define atheism as being just a lack of belief since not everyone else shares that standard

So no, it is not a response, it is my position, my state of mind.

If you reply "I don't believe in your god" to a theist, you don't need to prove anything, but if you make positive or negative claims like "Your god is a false hypothesis" or "Your religion is unfounded" you need to provide evidence - You can't just toss the argument and wait for it to pass; you need to be consistent with your reasoning.

I hold the opinion that atheists shouldn't just ask for evidence that proves god exist - Atheists just positively engage in debates, public or private ones, and dismiss theism; we should make the world know why atheism is the most rational and reasonable position (a good example of doing this are atheist activists - Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc.)

I also hold a different opinion on proof - For me, absence of evidence is evidence of absence - Therefore, absence of evidence of god, is evidence for god's absence, which means god doesn't exist.

(February 1, 2015 at 3:23 pm)Blackout Wrote:

(February 1, 2015 at 12:31 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: That is not the definition of atheism, because its a response to a claim.

For me it is. Saying atheism is just a lack of belief in gods is begging the minimal standards. However, being a strong atheist doesn't make me more or less of an atheist, I'm still an atheist - It's not another position, it's not a different sect of beliefs or a religion; it's as simple as having different opinions on what being an atheist means.

I am not saying that you can't be an atheist if you just lack belief in gods, but that's not the definition everyone uses - In my case, being an atheist means positively rejecting the existence of gods (and the supernatural). You can say that you are an atheist because you lack positive belief in gods, but you shouldn't define atheism as being just a lack of belief since not everyone else shares that standard

So no, it is not a response, it is my position, my state of mind.

If you reply "I don't believe in your god" to a theist, you don't need to prove anything, but if you make positive or negative claims like "Your god is a false hypothesis" or "Your religion is unfounded" you need to provide evidence - You can't just toss the argument and wait for it to pass; you need to be consistent with your reasoning.

I hold the opinion that atheists shouldn't just ask for evidence that proves god exist - Atheists just positively engage in debates, public or private ones, and dismiss theism; we should make the world know why atheism is the most rational and reasonable position (a good example of doing this are atheist activists - Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc.)

I also hold a different opinion on proof - For me, absence of evidence is evidence of absence - Therefore, absence of evidence of god, is evidence for god's absence, which means god doesn't exist.

It is a response to a specific claim, atheism by definition is a lack of belief in gods or god claims. Anything you attempt to pile on top of that is something you are adding to atheism. Atheism is not a state of mind, that is completely ridiculous.

An atheist can also choose to make a claim of knowledge, and then we shorthand that as a strong/gnostic atheist. That doesn't mean all atheists are strong atheists, so unless you also make that claim, you have no burden of proof. All you have to do is say, "I refuse to believe the claim based in insufficient evidence".

If you want to continue with your definition, that's totally fine, but you'll be at odds with just about everyone else.

I would say that atheism is a state of mind, it's the state of mind of not being convinced by God claims. Belief or non belief is a state of mind. But we don't have to claim to know things in order to believe them or not believe them. You can however also claim knowledge that the claim is false. Optionally

(February 1, 2015 at 3:28 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(February 1, 2015 at 3:23 pm)Blackout Wrote: For me it is. Saying atheism is just a lack of belief in gods is begging the minimal standards. However, being a strong atheist doesn't make me more or less of an atheist, I'm still an atheist - It's not another position, it's not a different sect of beliefs or a religion; it's as simple as having different opinions on what being an atheist means.

I am not saying that you can't be an atheist if you just lack belief in gods, but that's not the definition everyone uses - In my case, being an atheist means positively rejecting the existence of gods (and the supernatural). You can say that you are an atheist because you lack positive belief in gods, but you shouldn't define atheism as being just a lack of belief since not everyone else shares that standard

So no, it is not a response, it is my position, my state of mind.

If you reply "I don't believe in your god" to a theist, you don't need to prove anything, but if you make positive or negative claims like "Your god is a false hypothesis" or "Your religion is unfounded" you need to provide evidence - You can't just toss the argument and wait for it to pass; you need to be consistent with your reasoning.

I hold the opinion that atheists shouldn't just ask for evidence that proves god exist - Atheists just positively engage in debates, public or private ones, and dismiss theism; we should make the world know why atheism is the most rational and reasonable position (a good example of doing this are atheist activists - Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc.)

I also hold a different opinion on proof - For me, absence of evidence is evidence of absence - Therefore, absence of evidence of god, is evidence for god's absence, which means god doesn't exist.

It is a response to a specific claim, atheism by definition is a lack of belief in gods or god claims. Anything you attempt to pile on top of that is something you are adding to atheism. Atheism is not a state of mind, that is completely ridiculous.

No it isn't, atheism is the lack of belief in gods or the belief no gods exist. You can use the two positions. And yeah - It is a state of mind, every position is a state of mind. Atheism means literally "without god" - Go check the word's etymology - That can mean anything from the belief gods don't exist and complete rejection to the simple absence of positive belief

Your attempt to say strong atheism is not a position but a response is wishfully ignorant.

(February 1, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Blackout Wrote:

(February 1, 2015 at 3:28 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: It is a response to a specific claim, atheism by definition is a lack of belief in gods or god claims. Anything you attempt to pile on top of that is something you are adding to atheism. Atheism is not a state of mind, that is completely ridiculous.

No it isn't, atheism is the lack of belief in gods or the belief no gods exist. You can use the two positions. And yeah - It is a state of mind, every position is a state of mind. Atheism means literally "without god" - Go check the word's etymology - That can mean anything from the belief gods don't exist and complete rejection to the simple absence of positive belief

Your attempt to say strong atheism is not a position but a response is wishfully ignorant.

State of mind is your mood or mental state at a particular time, my entire state of mind can not be atheist. My state of mind could be logical and could lead to atheism when presented with god claims. i.e. If you told me vampires existed and I didn't believe you my state of mind wouldn't be A-vampirism.

Saying I believe no gods exist is not the same as claiming no gods exist. It is not a positive claim.

I didn't say anything about strong atheism and I didn't say it wasn't a position, don't put words in my mouth. I said anything you add to atheism is extra and does not change what atheism is.

Quote:State of mind is your mood or mental state at a particular time, my entire state of mind can not be atheist. My state of mind could be logical and could lead to atheism when presented with god claims. i.e. If you told me vampires existed and I didn't believe you my state of mind wouldn't be A-vampirism.

A state of mind can have countless definition - In cognitive psychology, it can be used to describe your intellectual position and mental projection/thoughts about what you think about a specific issue. In this case atheism is a state of mind.

Quote:Saying I believe no gods exist is not the same as claiming no gods exist. It is not a positive claim.

Yes but they are both atheist propositions. One simply takes it further, but none of them is less of an atheist. They are both atheists.

Quote:I didn't say anything about strong atheism and I didn't say it wasn't a position, don't put words in my mouth. I said anything you add to atheism is extra and does not change what atheism is.

It's not an extra, it's a different conception I chose to adopt altogether, but it's still atheism. A lack of belief in gods is atheism. A belief gods don't exist is atheism.

(February 1, 2015 at 3:28 pm)robvalue Wrote: An atheist can also choose to make a claim of knowledge, and then we shorthand that as a strong/gnostic atheist. That doesn't mean all atheists are strong atheists, so unless you also make that claim, you have no burden of proof. All you have to do is say, "I refuse to believe the claim based in insufficient evidence".

You have the burden of proof for any positive claim you make, regardless of your personal position on the god hypothesis. If a Christian claims that Islam is false, he has as much obligation to prove it as an atheist who claims the exact same thing. I am not trying to say atheists need to provide proof god doesn't exist, but when we make any positive claim, we need to provide evidence. I've already given examples

Quote:If you want to continue with your definition, that's totally fine, but you'll be at odds with just about everyone else.

Rob, I'm not saying other people aren't atheists - I am saying not everyone picks the definition that atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. I am not less of an atheist or a different atheist because of that - I am still an atheist.

Quote:I would say that atheism is a state of mind, it's the state of mind of not being convinced by God claims. Belief or non belief is a state of mind. But we don't have to claim to know things in order to believe them or not believe them. You can however also claim knowledge that the claim is false. Optionally

The claim can be false or true depending on how much evidence you provide. I can prove the Christian god doesn't exist, so in my case I know he doesn't

(February 1, 2015 at 4:05 pm)Blackout Wrote:

Quote:State of mind is your mood or mental state at a particular time, my entire state of mind can not be atheist. My state of mind could be logical and could lead to atheism when presented with god claims. i.e. If you told me vampires existed and I didn't believe you my state of mind wouldn't be A-vampirism.

A state of mind can have countless definition - In cognitive psychology, it can be used to describe your intellectual position and mental projection/thoughts about what you think about a specific issue. In this case atheism is a state of mind.

Quote:Saying I believe no gods exist is not the same as claiming no gods exist. It is not a positive claim.

Yes but they are both atheist propositions. One simply takes it further, but none of them is less of an atheist. They are both atheists.

Quote:I didn't say anything about strong atheism and I didn't say it wasn't a position, don't put words in my mouth. I said anything you add to atheism is extra and does not change what atheism is.

It's not an extra, it's a different conception I chose to adopt altogether, but it's still atheism. A lack of belief in gods is atheism. A belief gods don't exist is atheism.

(February 1, 2015 at 3:28 pm)robvalue Wrote: An atheist can also choose to make a claim of knowledge, and then we shorthand that as a strong/gnostic atheist. That doesn't mean all atheists are strong atheists, so unless you also make that claim, you have no burden of proof. All you have to do is say, "I refuse to believe the claim based in insufficient evidence".

You have the burden of proof for any positive claim you make, regardless of your personal position on the god hypothesis. If a Christian claims that Islam is false, he has as much obligation to prove it as an atheist who claims the exact same thing. I am not trying to say atheists need to provide proof god doesn't exist, but when we make any positive claim, we need to provide evidence. I've already given examples

Quote:If you want to continue with your definition, that's totally fine, but you'll be at odds with just about everyone else.

Rob, I'm not saying other people aren't atheists - I am saying not everyone picks the definition that atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. I am not less of an atheist or a different atheist because of that - I am still an atheist.

Quote:I would say that atheism is a state of mind, it's the state of mind of not being convinced by God claims. Belief or non belief is a state of mind. But we don't have to claim to know things in order to believe them or not believe them. You can however also claim knowledge that the claim is false. Optionally

The claim can be false or true depending on how much evidence you provide. I can prove the Christian god doesn't exist, so in my case I know he doesn't

The idea that your thoughts on every issue is a different state of mind is ridiculous. The same state of mind leads me to using the same criteria when evaluating a claim, the state of mind is the same regardless of the answer I get. I don't believe in god or vampires for the same reason, that doesn't mean not believing in god is my state of mind and not believing in vampires is my state of mind. My state of mind would be not believing in things that don't meet my criteria. Atheism would be the product of my state of mind.


Atheists are atheists because they don't believe in a god. Just because a particular atheist decides to be a strong atheist by saying he knows a god doesn't exist, does not change what atheism is. You can not get to strong atheism from atheism without adding something. You cant say because there are atheists who go one step further and make a positive claim then atheism itself adopts a burden of proof. There is a reason strong atheism is defined differently from just atheism.

Wizard, the definition of "atheism is a lack of belief in gods" is the definition of agnostic atheism. If this is, however the only definition of atheism, then I'm not an atheist, because I don't fit the lack of belief label. Gnostic atheism and agnostic atheism are both two forms of atheism, but both are atheism. what I'm saying is that the definition of atheism is both, it's not just a lack of belief in gods; it's either a lack of belief in gods or the belief no gods exist, depending on the individual. If semantically atheism is just a lack of belief, then I am not an atheist by that definition