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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 10, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Quote:Think of Christ as gods avatar on earth, like your nickname is your avatar on this forum, you act diferently under your avatar than you do in real life, and your avatar is not made of flesh or neurons, same with god.
Did i just compare Christ to a internet avatar... The way the holy ghost interacts makes me think it may be Gods Admin account 
Hi. Thanks. God and an avatar are immaterial. Jesus was a material being. By definition a material being is limited and finite, the Christian god unlimited and infinite and an avatar abstract ( although the difference between something immaterial and abstract is a fine one). Therefore Jesus was not an avatar
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 10, 2010 at 9:57 pm
(August 9, 2010 at 1:33 am)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote: (August 8, 2010 at 6:27 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: One thing I've not got my head around. One for any Christian theist.
How can Jesus be fully man and fully god. Man is limited, god unlimited. This is a straightforward logical contradiction. Without hiding behind any mysterious response how do you reconcile this?
This is one of the wierdest things that mystifies me as well. Jesus is himself (of course) and he is god, according to certain christians, despite the fact that he refers to himself in the first person and god many times in the second and third but never the first person.
There are even instances in the bible where he talks to god directly and he certainly makes no indication of being able to do the things god can do. According to the bible, Jesus can apparently make miracles, but he is not god.
If anything, his story paralells that of many of the mortal children of gods, though the only other example I can think of with my limited theological knowledge is Hercules, who despite being far more awesome is essentially in the same son of man and god boat as Jesus.
That's my take on it anyway.
He does seem to have been a man, always insightful even at age 12, yet showing considerable vulnerability, being surprised at a turn of events, unaware how much faith some person had, etc. Nevertheless, he seems to have become invulnerable after the transfiguration. So he began as less than the essence of God, and ended up as the very essence. It's the only explanation I can think of, but then I'm assured I cannot possibly think as well as an atheist.
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 10, 2010 at 10:27 pm
(August 10, 2010 at 9:57 pm)RAD Wrote: He does seem to have been a man, always insightful even at age 12, yet showing considerable vulnerability, being surprised at a turn of events, unaware how much faith some person had, etc. Nevertheless, he seems to have become invulnerable after the transfiguration. So he began as less than the essence of God, and ended up as the very essence. It's the only explanation I can think of, but then I'm assured I cannot possibly think as well as an atheist.
Fair enough. So does this mean that Jesus became one with god or that he simply discovered the depth of his own ability? I'm not sure what this transfiguration mean.
I'm assuming that Jesus essentially becomes a half-god in a sense (gaining omnipotent power, as half of omnipotence is still omnipotence, I think).
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 10, 2010 at 10:52 pm
(This post was last modified: August 10, 2010 at 11:10 pm by Godscreated.)
(August 10, 2010 at 3:13 am)DiRNiS Wrote: And the circular reasoning continues; "I believe what the bible says because the bible says so".
All other gods are imaginary, the God of creation is real and not because the Bible says He is, I know through personal exprience.
YES! you mean you don't? When I bring something to an argument from scripture it does not in any way imply circular reasoning. I can see though you use this same little quote alot and this I see as someone who has little to actually say and this could be that you have little knowledge of the subject.
(August 10, 2010 at 12:45 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: I agree I think we can dismiss these arguments. The logical contradiction still stands I'm afraid, it's the first time I've heard the Jesus left his powers in heaven argument. But it is just a construct to suit the dogma which has been constructed after the fact. The only other refutation I've heard is Jesus was fully man in his man nature and fully god in his god nature. But like most people I have no idea what that means, probably like the person stating it. This was a more intersting argument but clearly doesn't refute the contradiction. I'm still interested to know if any theist has an answer to this that can stand up to scrutiny.
Please explain what DiRNiS says in above quotes has any resemblance to the argument at hand. This is the same little quotes he uses all the time. What is it you find lacking in my answer, your asking a question about a far superior being to be explained by human terms. I've given you what scripture says about Christ where else is this knowledge you are searching for suppose to come from.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 11, 2010 at 8:51 am
(August 10, 2010 at 9:57 pm)RAD Wrote: He does seem to have been a man, always insightful even at age 12, yet showing considerable vulnerability, being surprised at a turn of events, unaware how much faith some person had, etc. Nevertheless, he seems to have become invulnerable after the transfiguration. So he began as less than the essence of God, and ended up as the very essence. It's the only explanation I can think of, but then I'm assured I cannot possibly think as well as an atheist.
I understand that you are trying to rationalise the dogma with the contradiction. But you are not only paying an intellectual price for doing do it just can't be the case. The reason is you are staing Jesus became a god and was therefore not eternal and not fully a god. Even of this were possible he would have needed to become infinite and immaterial which he didn't even after death because he was bodily resurrected and therefore still material. I'm afraid this does not reslve the contradiction. Which if I précis it is: Jesus could not be fully man (limited) and fully god (unlimited) and therefore chrstianity is founded on a fallacy and is false.
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 11, 2010 at 9:41 am
(August 10, 2010 at 10:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: All other gods are imaginary, the God of creation is real and not because the Bible says He is, I know through personal exprience.
YES! you mean you don't? When I bring something to an argument from scripture it does not in any way imply circular reasoning. I can see though you use this same little quote alot and this I see as someone who has little to actually say and this could be that you have little knowledge of the subject.
No, ALL gods are imaginary, including yours. Imaginary deities were created by man to try and explain what they could not understand in the past. Thanks to the advancements of science we are able to understand more about how the Earth and the universe came to be. Religions, including yours are becoming increasingly obsolete. Personal experience does not count as proof of your imaginary friend. I can say that I know my pillows talk to me every night through personal experience, but you or anybody would know it's a load of crap. There is no difference with your god. The human mind is very susceptible to delusions caused by the imagination. Just because you can imagine some deity talking to you doesn't mean it is.
Nobody has presented solid evidence to prove that your god or any other god for that matter exists. And yes, using the bible to prove what the bible says is correct does imply circular reasoning. It does not require a very bright mind to realise that.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
 
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 11, 2010 at 10:58 am
(August 9, 2010 at 11:16 pm)Godschild Wrote: You can dismiss the Egyptain mythology because they do not claim to have a living God.
Er, I think you'll find they did.
The ancient Egyptians believed that their Pharaoh was the living embodiment of god on earth. A divine being.
Same as the Emperor in feudal Japan. They believed he was a divine being.
Same horse shit Christians spout about jesus.
"A man who keeps one eye on the past is blind in one eye. A man who ignores the past is blind in both."
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 11, 2010 at 12:09 pm
(August 8, 2010 at 6:27 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: One thing I've not got my head around. One for any Christian theist.
How can Jesus be fully man and fully god. Man is limited, god unlimited. This is a straightforward logical contradiction. Without hiding behind any mysterious response how do you reconcile this? Humans are finite and that imposes a limit on what we can figure out by logical methods. God is omnipotent so he can do whatever he wants to even if it seems illogical to us.
(August 9, 2010 at 1:33 am)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote: This is one of the wierdest things that mystifies me as well. Jesus is himself (of course) and he is god, according to certain christians, despite the fact that he refers to himself in the first person and god many times in the second and third but never the first person.
There are even instances in the bible where he talks to god directly and he certainly makes no indication of being able to do the things god can do. According to the bible, Jesus can apparently make miracles, but he is not god. God is a trinity consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus was God but he often spoke to and about the Father. You can learn more about the trinity here:
http://www.carm.org/trinity
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Romans 1:20 ESV
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 11, 2010 at 12:48 pm
(August 11, 2010 at 12:09 pm)theophilus Wrote: God is a trinity consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus was God but he often spoke to and about the Father. You can learn more about the trinity here:
http://www.carm.org/trinity
That seems odd to me since god was referred to as such long before the apparent birth of Jesus if god doesn't exist without all three members of the trinity.
Though more interesting to me are the entries on atheism ( http://www.carm.org/atheism ) but that has nothing to do with what we were discussing.
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan
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RE: Logical contradictions?
August 11, 2010 at 12:52 pm
(August 11, 2010 at 12:48 pm)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote: That seems odd to me since god was referred to as such long before the apparent birth of Jesus if god doesn't exist without all three members of the trinity. The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. In Hebrew the "im" is used at the end of a word to signify that it is plural. God often uses the plural in speaking about himself. "Let us make man in our image."
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Romans 1:20 ESV
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