(February 8, 2015 at 12:39 pm)Dystopia Wrote: I am using race as a social construct. I'm aware that biologically there's no evidence for "races", but I'm warning people beforehand to avoid comments like "race doesn't exist". When I talk about race, I mean physical and cultural features we link to specific groups of people

I am curious, what drives some people to be racist against their own race? This isn't as rare as I thought. My girlfriend has gipsy ancestry, which basically means she looks white with slight Indian-like traits. She hates her ancestry, she really does, she is racist against gipsy people and denies that she has such ancestry. It's not rare for her to suggest a stereotype such as "Gypsies live on welfare and are criminals" is true. I don't really make a big deal about this, as people have the right to be racist against anyone and it doesn't impact me that she thinks half of her biological family (she's adopted) are a bunch of low class morons.

But it bothers me somehow - If I found out I had ancestry from 'x' ethnic group, I wouldn't care much, but I wouldn't simply say that group sucks because I would automatically self-label myself due to me being a part of that group.

Another example - A colleague in university is black, and he once said "Whenever I see a black man at night, I cross the street right away".

Why do people do this?

I see nothing strange about it. Just because someone is racist does not have to mean they automatically think their own ethnicity is the best, or even good. Especially, if they were not brought up in that particular culture.

It seems like there might be a lot more to your girlfriend's story, than you described, that can explain her attitude. How come she was adopted and at what age? What happened to her biological parents? Does her adopted family have a prejudice against gypsies or other races? Was her ethnic background known to/ suspected by other children and adults when she was growing up? Because if so - they were mocking her for it, there's no question about it - I have yet to visit a country where "gypsy" is not used as a derogatory term. You seem to be suggesting she simply found out about her ancestry one day, when she was fully developed as a person and decided on the spot she hated gypsies, which I'm finding hard to believe.
Being an adopted child is difficult in itself, looking (even slightly) "exotic" can make it way worse, especially growing up. I'd guess she had some bad experiences, because of her ethnicity and instead of hating the culture in which she was raised, she - logically - "decided" (most likely sub-consciously) to blame the culture that she has next to nothing in common with, other than a few physical traits, for which she may have been persecuted. I'm not saying it's "right", just that it's understandable.

Quote:I see nothing strange about it. Just because someone is racist does not have to mean they automatically think their own ethnicity is the best, or even good. Especially, if they were not brought up in that particular culture.

It seems like there might be a lot more to your girlfriend's story, than you described, that can explain her attitude. How come she was adopted and at what age? What happened to her biological parents? Does her adopted family have a prejudice against gypsies or other races? Was her ethnic background known to/ suspected by other children and adults when she was growing up? Because if so - they were mocking her for it, there's no question about it - I have yet to visit a country where "gypsy" is not used as a derogatory term. You seem to be suggesting she simply found out about her ancestry one day, when she was fully developed as a person and decided on the spot she hated gypsies, which I'm finding hard to believe.

- She was adopted because dad was a drug addict and mom was a prostitute - They didn't feed her or care for her. She was taken away from social security. To be fair her mom was gipsy but her dad was white, and he is way worse as a person compared to her mom
- Her family is friends with the biological parents and they don't have prejudices against them
- No, her ethnic background was not questioned - She looks mostly white and is socially perceived as a white person. I didn't know of her ancestry until she told me.
- She doesn't hate them in the literal meaning of the word, she is just prejudiced against those people. The reasons she points out are several - The fact her mom was a prostitute, married 7 times with different men to extort money and lived on welfare; the fact her mom didn't care for following sisters that are now living miserable lives because they didn't have the chance to be adopted; the fact most of her family lives in poor areas and has a culture that she doesn't accept and dislikes, etc.

Quote:Being an adopted child is difficult in itself, looking (even slightly) "exotic" can make it way worse, especially growing up. I'd guess she had some bad experiences, because of her ethnicity and instead of hating the culture in which she was raised, she - logically - "decided" (most likely sub-consciously) to blame the culture that she has next to nothing in common with, other than a few physical traits, for which she may have been persecuted. I'm not saying it's "right", just that it's understandable.

- She was never perceived as being a romani. She looks white to me, I only know about it because she told me. Yeah she does look slightly Indian but it's pretty common in my country for people to have some mixed heritage with white heritage - It's socially acceptable. Additionally, Romani people are usually more discriminated because of how they dress and not because of how they look - She dresses according to western fashion and not with traditional Romani clothes, so she is never perceived as being Romani, people look at her as white.

(February 8, 2015 at 12:39 pm)Dystopia Wrote: I am using race as a social construct. I'm aware that biologically there's no evidence for "races", but I'm warning people beforehand to avoid comments like "race doesn't exist". When I talk about race, I mean physical and cultural features we link to specific groups of people

I am curious, what drives some people to be racist against their own race? This isn't as rare as I thought. My girlfriend has gipsy ancestry, which basically means she looks white with slight Indian-like traits. She hates her ancestry, she really does, she is racist against gipsy people and denies that she has such ancestry. It's not rare for her to suggest a stereotype such as "Gypsies live on welfare and are criminals" is true. I don't really make a big deal about this, as people have the right to be racist against anyone and it doesn't impact me that she thinks half of her biological family (she's adopted) are a bunch of low class morons.

But it bothers me somehow - If I found out I had ancestry from 'x' ethnic group, I wouldn't care much, but I wouldn't simply say that group sucks because I would automatically self-label myself due to me being a part of that group.

Another example - A colleague in university is black, and he once said "Whenever I see a black man at night, I cross the street right away".

Why do people do this?

Why would there have to be a different cause of prejudice if one is prejudiced against one's own group instead of another group? I think the answer is the same as why people are racist generally, which has already been suggested by Nope and Homeless Nutter.

There is no reason why prejudice must be against other groups; it can be against a group to which one belongs. The cause (or causes) of the prejudice can be the same either way.

And this applies to more than prejudice about race. I have encountered women who don't want women bosses; it is not just men who are prejudiced against women. (I myself have always liked having women bosses, because they generally think I am great for just doing my job and not causing trouble for them the way so many other people do. And from seeing some of the things they encounter from those who work for them, I totally understand why they think I am so great. But it is not because I do anything great for them; it is because I fail to be a total asshole.)

I think prejudice is the result of sloppy thinking. It is much easier to just judge a whole group together than to bother with actual facts about each individual and judge them individually.

So I think it is laziness and stupidity. And, of course, it can be initiated by indoctrination, the way any fool beliefs might be. Those who do not bother with thinking the matter through, end up retaining their prejudices, just like people who do not think things through very well often retain their religious indoctrination. And I might as well add, just because one bothers to think about one thing carefully, that does not mean that one will bother to think about everything else with equal care. So one can escape from one stupid belief or set of beliefs while retaining some other stupid beliefs.

(February 8, 2015 at 4:29 pm)IATIA Wrote: sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never harm me.

If you have children, please do not teach them this garbage. Words can be far more damaging than violence. If someone breaks your arm, you'll wear a cast and it will heal in a few months to a year at the longest. Some words can haunt you your whole life. Imagine growing up hearing that white people are garbage. They're lazy, drug dealing, thieving, scum and as a white person, you will never amount to anything. Hear it often enough, from a young enough age, it could easily leave you despising your own race and wishing you weren't white. Words can be harmful, that sticks and stones saying is a lie.

My parents raised six children with that saying and we all turned out just fine. We are not racist nor do we give a shit what deragotory terms or names are thrown around. We learned to consider the source and move on.

(February 8, 2015 at 10:49 pm)IATIA Wrote: My parents raised six children with that saying and we all turned out just fine. We are not racist nor do we give a shit what deragotory terms or names are thrown around. We learned to consider the source and move on.

My parents raised me with that saying too. I also turned out fine. That's not the point. Your words have meaning and they can be hurtful. It's not true that words can't hurt someone. I tell my kids to think before they speak because their words can have more impact than they realize.

(February 8, 2015 at 10:53 pm)Losty Wrote:

(February 8, 2015 at 10:49 pm)IATIA Wrote: My parents raised six children with that saying and we all turned out just fine. We are not racist nor do we give a shit what deragotory terms or names are thrown around. We learned to consider the source and move on.

My parents raised me with that saying too. I also turned out fine. That's not the point. Your words have meaning and they can be hurtful. It's not true that words can't hurt someone. I tell my kids to think before they speak because their words can have more impact than they realize.

And teaching wrong things to kids can make them grow up thinking it is true - It all starts with childhood. If I taught my kids to be white supremacists and showed them white supremacist books, movies, etc, they'd probably grow up thinking they are right and that everyone else is wrong. Maybe they would back down later, like theists de-convert, but it's not an easy process. I'm not a parent, but raising kids ideologically should be impartial and not biased

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Quote:So I think it is laziness and stupidity. And, of course, it can be initiated by indoctrination, the way any fool beliefs might be. Those who do not bother with thinking the matter through, end up retaining their prejudices, just like people who do not think things through very well often retain their religious indoctrination. And I might as well add, just because one bothers to think about one thing carefully, that does not mean that one will bother to think about everything else with equal care. So one can escape from one stupid belief or set of beliefs while retaining some other stupid beliefs.

Indoctrination and your surroundings, where you grow, with whom and with what can influence what you will become. I was raised by an empowering impartial and reasonably liberal woman and so I turned out to be a pretty fair minded person and I dislike prejudices. Using your assertion, since she was raised by a white family and she only found out about adoption later it's probable that she absorbed negative stereotypes before, because those are stereotypes all over the society I live in - Gypsies are basically like Muslims in France or blacks in America, people don't like them and the police doesn't like them.

(February 8, 2015 at 6:18 pm)Dystopia Wrote: - She was adopted because dad was a drug addict and mom was a prostitute - They didn't feed her or care for her. She was taken away from social security. To be fair her mom was gipsy but her dad was white, and he is way worse as a person compared to her mom
- Her family is friends with the biological parents and they don't have prejudices against them
- No, her ethnic background was not questioned - She looks mostly white and is socially perceived as a white person. I didn't know of her ancestry until she told me.
- She doesn't hate them in the literal meaning of the word, she is just prejudiced against those people. The reasons she points out are several - The fact her mom was a prostitute, married 7 times with different men to extort money and lived on welfare; the fact her mom didn't care for following sisters that are now living miserable lives because they didn't have the chance to be adopted; the fact most of her family lives in poor areas and has a culture that she doesn't accept and dislikes, etc.
- She was never perceived as being a romani. She looks white to me, I only know about it because she told me. Yeah she does look slightly Indian but it's pretty common in my country for people to have some mixed heritage with white heritage - It's socially acceptable. Additionally, Romani people are usually more discriminated because of how they dress and not because of how they look - She dresses according to western fashion and not with traditional Romani clothes, so she is never perceived as being Romani, people look at her as white.

OK, then. I give up. She's probably just evil. Happy now?

But seriously - why people develop personal prejudices is not always clear, however it's very common. It's obviously easier to explain why some people hate people who are different - because that way they make themselves feel validated, as a member of a "better" race, religion, culture, or whatever. But it doesn't have to be that simple. And there are plenty "practical" reasons for hating one's own people.

There are many closeted gay people - like at least 50% of catholic priests, for example - who openly condemn homosexuals, because they haven't come to term with their own sexuality and want to convince themselves, as well as everyone else, that they're actually straight. They're also probably envy openly gay people, for having the courage to live their lives the way they want to.

Historically there have been many people, with jewish ancestry, who expressed anti-Semitic opinions, in order to avoid discrimination and persecution. There's even a stereotype of a "self-hating jew".
Then there are ethnic groups which are internally way more varied and divided, than people perceive from the outside. I've been a witness to many arguments between African and Caraibian black people, who generally don't seem to have very high opinions of one another, even though to most white people they seem like one group.

And even if no one actually discriminated against your girlfriend for her ethnic background, I'm pretty sure she asks herself the question - whether she's going to be as bad a parent, as her parents were and maybe she's trying to "cut herself off" from her biological mother and her culture as much as she can - before someone else makes the connection.

I'm sorry - it's a speculation on my part, but it would make sense to me. I personally don't have a very high opinion of my own nation - for being overly catholic and glorifying alcohol, which are two things that really screwed up my childhood and of which I'm still a witness whenever I go to visit. I try not to let people know, unless necessary, where I come from, because I don't think I have enough restrain to take another stupid Polack joke and I don't want to be even remotely considered an alcoholic or - especially - catholic. I don't hate the people, but I feel much better keeping away, especially that you can't visit a polish household and not drink - it's "tradition" - and I really, really hate the stuff. (I'm fine with drugs, by the way - I didn't say it was a rational or ideologically consistent discrimination).

As someone said earlier - my "blood" is not me. I did not choose it, I don't have to like it. And I surely don't have to be "proud" of it. And if my mother was a gypsy prostitute, who couldn't take care of her children - I'd probably want to keep away from that part of my "heritage" as well. It may not be "right", but it's understandable.

(February 8, 2015 at 11:06 pm)Dystopia Wrote:

(February 8, 2015 at 10:53 pm)Losty Wrote: My parents raised me with that saying too. I also turned out fine. That's not the point. Your words have meaning and they can be hurtful. It's not true that words can't hurt someone. I tell my kids to think before they speak because their words can have more impact than they realize.

And teaching wrong things to kids can make them grow up thinking it is true - It all starts with childhood. If I taught my kids to be white supremacists and showed them white supremacist books, movies, etc, they'd probably grow up thinking they are right and that everyone else is wrong. Maybe they would back down later, like theists de-convert, but it's not an easy process. I'm not a parent, but raising kids ideologically should be impartial and not biased

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing or both or neither.

People leave love out of their lives for their own selves and for others, this is probably taught by parents or peers. When we leave love out of our lives for our selves and others bad things begin to grow in societies.

GC