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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 16, 2015 at 10:21 pm
(This post was last modified: February 16, 2015 at 10:22 pm by Homeless Nutter.)
(February 16, 2015 at 6:04 pm)emilynghiem Wrote: Yikes! Signed on to a similar site that is not like this one, I guess!
Tried to point out the need for scientific proof of spiritual healing before assuming it's bogus.[...]
That's preposterous. The burden of proof is on people claiming "touchy-feely" healing has any real, physical effect. If you don't like to be criticized for spreading medical misinformation about placebo effect - keep it to yourself.
Medicine is an important thing to many people - especially the sick ones. There are thousands of quacks with all sorts of scams - we don't have to waste time with each of them, by default - they're NOT medical professionals (even if some may appear to be "on the fringe"). We have highly trained medical doctors and researchers to deal with them and let us know when and if any of that is at all useful. Or at least - not harmful.
Hey - why not put on a mask and a cape and become a vigilante - since the Police hasn't stopped all the crime yet? Answer: because you'd stop nothing and would get killed, all the while interfering with professionals doing their jobs.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 16, 2015 at 10:59 pm
(February 16, 2015 at 10:21 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: (February 16, 2015 at 6:04 pm)emilynghiem Wrote: Yikes! Signed on to a similar site that is not like this one, I guess!
Tried to point out the need for scientific proof of spiritual healing before assuming it's bogus.[...]
That's preposterous. The burden of proof is on people claiming "touchy-feely" healing has any real, physical effect. If you don't like to be criticized for spreading medical misinformation about placebo effect - keep it to yourself.
Medicine is an important thing to many people - especially the sick ones. There are thousands of quacks with all sorts of scams - we don't have to waste time with each of them, by default - they're NOT medical professionals (even if some may appear to be "on the fringe"). We have highly trained medical doctors and researchers to deal with them and let us know when and if any of that is at all useful. Or at least - not harmful.
Hey - why not put on a mask and a cape and become a vigilante - since the Police hasn't stopped all the crime yet? Answer: because you'd stop nothing and would get killed, all the while interfering with professionals doing their jobs.
Hi Homeless Nutter
Your reply comes closest to what I was getting on the other site.
1. first there is a difference between false faith healing that is dangerous and fraudulent, vs. effective spiritual healing that is safe natural and doesn't reject science or medicine but works consistently with both.
Dr. Francis MacNutt explains this best in his books on the subject,
and does appeal for help to stop the fraudulent faith healing that is dangerous. by proving how the correct practices work, this will solve that problem at the same time
2. the placebo effect does not work on cases like drug or sexual addiction, that require deep spiritual healing. the real recovery work is based on forgiveness, and this is a deep and difficult process, and not something that can be faked with a placebo.
I've never seen forced forgiveness that worked to heal anything. And never seen someone magically will away their drug addiction or especially not a sexual addiction as deeply rooted as pedophilia. You cannot just will someone to stop being homosexual or to suddenly become transgender.
These are deep spiritual conditions, and the cases of people who have healed did so through forgiveness and healing therapy. Placebo's can't magically change alcoholics to normal people free from addictions, sorry.
The ones who try this, find it doesn't work and have to go through deep therapy to heal all the root causes of what went into their addictive patterns.
NOTE: Here is a new response I got on the other site.
I have never seen this before.
One of the two jumpy people posted that because human limbs growing back would be consistent with the laws of physics, then if human limbs cannot be made to grow back (like lizard tails) then God must not exist.
Who has ever based existence of God on whether human limbs can grow back? I have never heard of this.
I tried to explain the laws of nature work as they work:
apples grow from apple seeds, and apple trees produce apples
not oranges.
But they said that can be explained by the laws of whatever
but not human limbs not growing back.
????
have you ever seen this argument before?
I though it was as creative as the argument as using a banana to prove that God exists, because it is designed to be held in the hand, or something like that.
Most people are satisfied by explaining that spiritual healing works on spiritual levels and something like a physical injury requires physical repair.
This amputee business is really something if that's what people need to see in order to prove a point!
I guess this is like fundamental Bible pushers who have to see the Bible come true literally in the way they dictate, and have to see people agree to that interpretation, in order to believe it is the same God and Christ.
My goodness this is very interesting.
Has anyone else run into someone who absolutely had to see a human limb grow back to believe in God?
What are the rules of nature then, what else do we have to see?
????
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 17, 2015 at 1:50 am
Emily, you got several helpful replies but instead of responding to those, you waited for Homeless Nutter's post as an excuse to go off on a tangent. That makes me wonder if you're serious about wanting to scientifically test your 'spiritual healing' thing. And Homeless Nutter is right in that the burden of proof is on you. You are making a claim so it is up to you to prove it or at least produce some scientifically valid evidence to support it.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 17, 2015 at 2:23 am
If you set up a double blind test with a control group versus a group getting spiritual healing, then that would be a way of gathering evidence that there is something going on more than just placebo. Such a thing has not yet ever been demonstrated, but I admire your will to try.
Even if the test does show a significant effect from the spiritual healing, that still leaves you with the question of "why". And science literally cannot establish supernatural causation. Just because some guys managed to do some healing, that doesn't mean their explanation for it should be automatically accepted. It would be an argument from ignorance to accept a supernatural explanation just because no natural one has yet been found.
So the best you can do is to show that these guys are actually having an effect. If they want to demonstrate the method they are using, then that requires it to be defined and investigated as well.
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 17, 2015 at 3:52 am
Homosexuality and gender dysphoria are spiritual conditions that can be cured? Don't think I like you anymore.
Also, you can't 'cure' addiction. Once an addict, always and addict. It's just a matter of resisting and staying 'sober'
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 17, 2015 at 4:24 am
Wait, so you asked them to scientifically disprove your assertions? And they still behaved so politely? Kudos to those guys...
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 17, 2015 at 4:33 am
(February 16, 2015 at 6:17 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: I would suggest brevity.
Yes. Brevity good.
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 17, 2015 at 7:54 am
(This post was last modified: February 17, 2015 at 8:04 am by robvalue.)
Wait..
(February 17, 2015 at 3:52 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Homosexuality and gender dysphoria are spiritual conditions that can be cured? Don't think I like you anymore. Whoah...
I missed that part. What do you mean Emily that these are conditions? You think these are illnesses?
Pedophilia isn't an illness either.
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 17, 2015 at 8:06 am
(This post was last modified: February 17, 2015 at 9:17 am by Homeless Nutter.)
(February 16, 2015 at 10:21 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:
(February 16, 2015 at 10:59 pm)emilynghiem Wrote: Hi Homeless Nutter
Your reply comes closest to what I was getting on the other site.
1. first there is a difference between false faith healing that is dangerous and fraudulent, vs. effective spiritual healing that is safe natural and doesn't reject science or medicine but works consistently with both.
To a scientist - there is no difference. Neither has been proven in a rational manner. People believe whatever they want to believe. That's not how science works.
Quote:Dr. Francis MacNutt explains this best in his books on the subject,
and does appeal for help to stop the fraudulent faith healing that is dangerous. by proving how the correct practices work, this will solve that problem at the same time
A charlatan denouncing competition - nothing new.
Quote:2. the placebo effect does not work on cases like drug or sexual addiction, that require deep spiritual healing. the real recovery work is based on forgiveness, and this is a deep and difficult process, and not something that can be faked with a placebo.
None of that is a fact. Sounds like a fancy talk for 12 step program, which is not a scientific method and there's no proof it has any better long-time effects than no treatment at all. Some people beat addiction, some don't.
And placebo effect is not "faked". It's a real thing - people often get better, when they believe they should be getting better, like when someone is taking care of them. Placebo effect is also at work, when real medicine is used. I suggest reading up on that, since you don't seem to understand the basics of medical research.
Quote:I've never seen forced forgiveness that worked to heal anything. And never seen someone magically will away their drug addiction or especially not a sexual addiction as deeply rooted as pedophilia. You cannot just will someone to stop being homosexual or to suddenly become transgender.
These are deep spiritual conditions, and the cases of people who have healed did so through forgiveness and healing therapy. Placebo's can't magically change alcoholics to normal people free from addictions, sorry.
Neither can whatever it is you're talking about, sorry. As I said before - some people beat addiction, some don't. And often others take the credit. Psychotherapy can probably help, but if you mean that, then why not call it "psychotherapy"? And obviously any contact with other humans is helpful to a recovering addict, because the main problem of most addicts is isolation. Nothing magical here.
Everything you are saying sounds like the same old "feel-good", un-provable, metaphysical sentiments, used by - possibly well-meaning - people who'd like to be doctors, but are unable or unwilling to put in the effort and go through med-school. They make up, or adhere to fake, but nice-sounding modalities and feel like they're "helping". The problems start when they influence gullible people's choices of medical treatment, which happens all too often - hence my negative reaction to something that may seem innocuous - if naive - in itself.
If my doctor tells me I need "spiritual healing" I'll... seek a second, perhaps a third opinion. If it checks out, though - I'll be happy to give it a try. Until then - it's officially "woo".
Feel free to argue, but I'm not really going to explain science here. You're making claims - show some proof. Vague "new-age-y" sentiments about "forgiveness" and such do not constitute a rational discourse any more than nursery rhymes do. They sound "nice", they're easy to use, but mean nothing.
Oh and btw - there's no such thing as "sex addiction", as far as medicine can tell. It's something people (some of them likely addicted to alcohol or other substances, or perhaps with certain personality disorders) made up, in order to justify their lack of impulse control.
We're all "sex addicts" - just as we are "food addicts" and "air addicts" - but most of us cope just fine with no "healing" of any kind.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Help: jumped on for seeking scientific proof of spiritual healing
February 17, 2015 at 9:12 am
(This post was last modified: February 17, 2015 at 9:13 am by FatAndFaithless.)
(February 16, 2015 at 10:59 pm)emilynghiem Wrote: You cannot just will someone to stop being homosexual or to suddenly become transgender.
These are deep spiritual conditions, and the cases of people who have healed did so through forgiveness and healing therapy. (b mine)
Yeah my brain is done dealing with this shit now.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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