(February 22, 2015 at 5:17 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(February 22, 2015 at 4:55 pm)Drich Wrote: That is why we all eventually devolve into a nazi/ISIS type of self righteousness.

Speak for yourself. If the only thing keeping you from slipping into depravity is your faith in God, by all means, please keep believing. The world doesn't need any more genocidal maniacs.

Oddly enough, even though I'm a moral relativist, I haven't gotten around to killing one single person ... unlike so many theists who assert moral absolutism.

(February 22, 2015 at 4:55 pm)Drich Wrote: That begs the question is God 'good' given what popular culture deems to be acceptable behavior? No. But, again so what?

The god you worship is evil by any yardstick. He orders genocide, and indeed commits it himself. He practices collective punishment. He holds his own creation hostage to his whim, threatening us with eternal punishment if we practice the free will you allege he gave us. Those are the actions of a sociopath.

And you worship him.

So is it your belief that your life as a moral whateverist, would be possible if not for all the genocide and this/your country was built on?

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(February 22, 2015 at 5:18 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: This discussion of Nazi's reminds me of the Nuremberg defense. Christians ignore their personal sense of morality to follow the superior morality of God - "orders are orders".

On the others hand, God's absolute morality is presented so ambiguously in the Bible that it becomes relative morality. Every Christian is forced to guess based on his/her own instinctual morality.

Do you have examples of either claim?

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(February 22, 2015 at 5:44 pm)Strider Wrote: Christians know that their particular entity of worship cannot be judged as "good" by using the normal, modern standards by which we utilize to interpret a behavior as "good" or "bad". Therefore, they must twist words and claim that the concept of "good", as we understand it, has no real meaning.

What a line of bullshit. More mental gymnastics to cling to the idea that your sky sociopath really wants to shower you with love rather than plague and damnation.

Say it again...

'By using normal modern standards.'



God could not also be judged as 'good' by hedonistic roman standards... That's my point. In a declining soceity who bases right and wrong off of pop culture God who opposes our desire to slip into evil will always be judged 'bad' as a means to justify our decent into the evil we crave.

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(February 22, 2015 at 5:45 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(February 22, 2015 at 5:36 pm)Ignorant Wrote: How/in what way can something be good?

Is heaven good?

Heaven is just a place. It is what/who is in heaven that makes it 'good or bad.'

(February 22, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: So is it your belief that your life as a moral whateverist, would be possible if not for all the genocide and this/your country was built on?

Oh, for fuck's sake. You can't tar someone with the actions of people before they were born, Drich. You keep doing this, demanding that we throw the baby out with the bathwater, and for what purpose? You want us to... what? Admit that genocide is okay because genocide happened in the past?

Is that seriously your moral standpoint? "I believe genocide is okay, and you should too?"

Quote:God could not also be judged as 'good' by hedonistic roman standards... That's my point. In a declining soceity who bases right and wrong off of pop culture God who opposes our desire to slip into evil will always be judged 'bad' as a means to justify our decent into the evil we crave.

The "decent into evil" being countries that fight for equal protection for everyone under the law, the criminalization of slavery and rape, and such?

(February 22, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: In a declining soceity who bases right and wrong off of pop culture

My morality comes from what I personally believe is right or wrong. I may enjoy Lady Gaga's music, but she in no way influences me in matters of morality. Not that she is in any way immoral except through the highly biased and abnormal viewpoint of the erroneously skewed theistic mindset.

It is quite mentally unhealthy to adhere to the notion that we are defective and evil due to the absurd theistic belief that we are all sinners. If anything is a sin, it is the horrible theistic urge to continuously deprive one's self of rationality purely based on a primitive belief system that by any logical standards is dangerous simply for its reliance upon delusion as opposed to the harsher truth of reality.

Being weak enough to fall into the trap of faith's delusion is not something of which to be proud.

Drich, I am not certain what past atrocoties have to do with you proving that your particular god is good. The majority of the population of the US has always been Christian so if you are going to blame the current generation for their ancestors' actions then you should also blame the religion most of them followed.

Can you provide an example of how the current generation bases their morals off pop culture?

I didn't expect to agree with the Christians in this thread but I thought they would at least be able to explain why they believe their god is good.

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(February 22, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: So is it your belief that your life as a moral whateverist, would be possible if not for all the genocide and this/your country was built on?

Drich, because you are from the United Stated also that was an unusual way to word your statement. Didn't you mean this/our country instead of this/your?

(February 22, 2015 at 7:56 pm)Nope Wrote: Could you expand on this a bit, Drich? Perhaps you could give an example of what is considered moral according to your god that isn't also considered good by the popular culture.

Certainly, matter of fact here are three examples.

1) God instituted the covenant of marriage between man, woman and a blessing on this Union from Himself.
2) God forbade sex outside of this holy Union.
3) God (The Son) placed a curse on anyone who would harm a child, yet we prize 'a woman's "right to choose" over a child's right to life, if we simply dehumanize the child and call it by the Latin name instead of its more familiar English identifying name.

Quote:Maybe I am wrong but isn't pop culture things like music, tv shows and movies?

... Just a little further with this thought...
(What driving soceitial force also determines content in the cultural things you just mentioned?)

Quote:I do not believe in god and so far I have no desire to hurt anyone. Do you have proof that without god we would turn into genocidal maniacs?

aside for world history?

The only reason you are content is because everything you want is brought to you, let the walmarts and targets of this world dry up, and you will divert back to the same primal mess that founded this country, and every other one man has ever established.

History shows Hunger, the illusion of safty, pride are the reasons soceities spiral off the rails. As we have those we like the Greeks, romans, the English all held massive empires, who's slow decent into debachery ultimatly lead to their demise. While these cultures remain, they are but shadows of who they once where. The US is no different.

Quote:Actually, bible god drowned most of humanity once and has promised to return to destroy most of humankind again. Are there corcumstances where you believe genocide is moral, Drich?

yes

Quote:How can you judge the Nazis as evil when, according to the bible, your god has done worse?

because again the act itself is not what is evil, it is who and why it is being carried out that is evil.

We will learn (maybe not in this generation) but hopefully by the next that humanity as a whole is not redeemable. That their are those among us who only seek to destroy those who are not like them. The staff at CHARLIE Hebdo learned this at a great cost. (Not everyone wants to live in your/their version of the world.) and it will be by their hand that a choice will be forced upon the world. At some point it will be 'us' or them..

Iran is desperatly trying to put nukes (in suit case form) in the hands of the people who shot up CHARLIE Hebdo, and the people who are now threatening western malls.

After we are made to abandon a few dozen cities like NYC or Washington DC, because nuke radiation is too high, maybe people like you will wake up one day and see not everyone wants to live in the wests version of the future.

Some people want to toe the line that was toe-ed, a thousand years ago, and don't care who they have to kill to make the world toe that very same line....
So if and when it comes to that point whether or not pop culture is ready to accept that killing more than just armed combatants is what we have to do to purge or break a people of an ideology I am for it. As I have been for as long as I can remember.

Because honestly this is no different than the US fire bombing/napalming (ultimatly nuking) the Japanese general population centers as the strageity for winning the war in Japan.. The powers that be then knew that it wasn't just the trained soldiers that they were fighting. We were fighting every man woman and child in that social group, and it took a battle plan that addressed the whole enemy and not just the ones who wore different uniforms than us.

In short our war against Japan was a modern example of sanctioned genocide, we broke the will of that people. Took their cultural identity, and replaced it with our own. Now look at what Japan is compared to what it was pre wwii.

Our war in Japan is a great example of what structured genocide can do for a radical population who self destructive tendencies would normally demand that they invade or attack our way of life.

Quote:

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Hello ignorant.

I could say the same and add near sighted, without a basic knoweledge of world history.[/quote]

Quote:If you give us your definition of good we can determine where we agree and disagree.

Good is what ever God says it is.

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(February 22, 2015 at 11:53 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(February 22, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: So is it your belief that your life as a moral whateverist, would be possible if not for all the genocide and this/your country was built on?

Oh, for fuck's sake. You can't tar someone with the actions of people before they were born, Drich. You keep doing this, demanding that we throw the baby out with the bathwater, and for what purpose? You want us to... what? Admit that genocide is okay because genocide happened in the past?

Is that seriously your moral standpoint? "I believe genocide is okay, and you should too?"

If our foundations is one bathed in blood how hard does the storms of life have to come at us before we return to them?

Again, it won't be long before the terrorist learn how to hit the supermarkets that allow us the luxury's of being post modern self righteous douche bags who are 'better' than the generation who came before us...

Riddle me this:
What happens when whole foods can't provide you with year round kale, quinoa, and tofu? Now what happens when wal mart cant provide fried chicken, hamburgers, hot dogs, moon pies, and cokes to all your red blooded neighbors?

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(February 23, 2015 at 12:08 am)Chad32 Wrote:

Quote:God could not also be judged as 'good' by hedonistic roman standards... That's my point. In a declining soceity who bases right and wrong off of pop culture God who opposes our desire to slip into evil will always be judged 'bad' as a means to justify our decent into the evil we crave.

The "decent into evil" being countries that fight for equal protection for everyone under the law, the criminalization of slavery and rape, and such?

Was that England's stance she. It's empire started to unravel itself in the late 1700? Or is human rights high on the list of China (the next great world empire)

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(February 23, 2015 at 12:08 am)Sionnach Wrote:

(February 22, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: In a declining soceity who bases right and wrong off of pop culture

My morality comes from what I personally believe is right or wrong. I may enjoy Lady Gaga's music, but she in no way influences me in matters of morality. Not that she is in any way immoral except through the highly biased and abnormal viewpoint of the erroneously skewed theistic mindset.

It is quite mentally unhealthy to adhere to the notion that we are defective and evil due to the absurd theistic belief that we are all sinners. If anything is a sin, it is the horrible theistic urge to continuously deprive one's self of rationality purely based on a primitive belief system that by any logical standards is dangerous simply for its reliance upon delusion as opposed to the harsher truth of reality.

Being weak enough to fall into the trap of faith's delusion is not something of which to be proud.

Not what I said.

Quote:Iran is desperatly trying to put nukes (in suit case form) in the hands of the people who shot up CHARLIE Hebdo, and the people who are now threatening western malls.

Iran is not making nukes. They're researching nuclear power, and abiding by the rules against nuclear weapons. Hell, they're ISIS' biggest enemy, due to Shiites and Suunis hating each other.

There are evil people in the world, and there are good people. of course Humanity can be redeemed, and no religion or god is going to redeem it. we have to do it ourselves.

(February 23, 2015 at 12:16 am)Nope Wrote: Drich, I am not certain what past atrocoties have to do with you proving that your particular god is good. The majority of the population of the US has always been Christian so if you are going to blame the current generation for their ancestors' actions then you should also blame the religion most of them followed.

Can you provide an example of how the current generation bases their morals off pop culture?

I didn't expect to agree with the Christians in this thread but I thought they would at least be able to explain why they believe their god is good.

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(February 22, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: So is it your belief that your life as a moral whateverist, would be possible if not for all the genocide and this/your country was built on?

Drich, because you are from the United Stated also that was an unusual way to word your statement. Didn't you mean this/our country instead of this/your?

Asked and answer your first request.
as far as my phrasing, I can keep up with all the name changes let alone where everyone is from. This country refers to my country the United stated, and your country refers to whatever country you may be from if it differs from mine.

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(February 23, 2015 at 12:56 am)Chad32 Wrote:

Quote:Iran is desperatly trying to put nukes (in suit case form) in the hands of the people who shot up CHARLIE Hebdo, and the people who are now threatening western malls.

Iran is not making nukes. They're researching nuclear power, and abiding by the rules against nuclear weapons. Hell, they're ISIS' biggest enemy, due to Shiites and Suunis hating each other.

There are evil people in the world, and there are good people. of course Humanity can be redeemed, and no religion or god is going to redeem it. we have to do it ourselves.

A country does not turn to North Korean nuclear scientists for help building a power reactor. They can't seem to even power their own citizens. But they know how to make nukes.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard
http://www.spiegel.de/international/worl...12209.html

Spiegel is like a German Time magazine.

(February 22, 2015 at 7:28 pm)Ignorant Wrote: It is ok if you don't have a way of expressing it, but you (and others here) clearly have a particular understanding of "goodness" which you find contradictory to God (particularly his actions as they are supposedly described in the bible). I would like to know what that understanding is, and where it came from if possible?

My conception of goodness is pretty simple -- treat others the way I'd like to be treated, add to the general weal, and leave the world a better place than I find it.

This contradicts your god's opinions in certain instances, which isn't a problem for me insofar as I understand that your god is a figment of your imagination.

Where it comes from? Empathy. Look it up, if you need more information. Also, email your god the link, because he clearly doesn't get it.

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(February 22, 2015 at 8:49 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: - kindness to animals (vegetarianism, etc.)

Human incisors evolved for a reason. Asserting that using them for their evolved purpose is "evil" is silly. Applying a moral dimension to a survival mechanism is nonsense. Would you advise Inuits to abstain from meat?

(February 22, 2015 at 8:49 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: - income redistribution

That sounds great, until it's your money being redistributed.

Tell us -- how much have you donated to charities serving the poor in the last year? If you believe so strongly in income redistribution, certainly you've started doing so on your own without waiting for government compulsion.

(February 22, 2015 at 8:49 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: - cats ...

Fuck a bunch of cats.

(February 23, 2015 at 12:42 am)Drich Wrote: If our foundations is one bathed in blood how hard does the storms of life have to come at us before we return to them?

So you think that, because disaster might inflict desperation, we're somehow just as bad morally as, say, slave owners? I don't think it's even possible to produce a worse non-sequitur. The two situations aren't remotely equivalent, to begin with; doing something bad in order to survive is not the same as being in comfortable circumstances and still doing something bad. Leaving aside the huge, gaping tu coque fallacy at the heart of what you're saying, it's still an equivocation.

Besides, I'd argue that the way our world is now, we'd still come out better in times of strife than those in the past, just due to our increased globalization and capabilities.

Quote:Again, it won't be long before the terrorist learn how to hit the supermarkets that allow us the luxury's of being post modern self righteous douche bags who are 'better' than the generation who came before us...

Alright, Mad Max, calm down.

I think the big problem here is that you're assuming things about how we'd act in situations you've never seen us in, and for people you don't really know, based on no evidence, merely because it's convenient. You're doing nothing but bandying about bare assertions and then expecting us to continue as though they're suddenly indisputably true. That's not exactly cogent argumentation.

Besides, food production isn't the local game you seem to think it is; much of our food is produced overseas anyway. Disabling supermarkets is little more than destroying the front end putting a nice presentation on things, not cutting off the supply. You're even factually wrong in your crazy, self serving fantasies.

Quote:Riddle me this:
What happens when whole foods can't provide you with year round kale, quinoa, and tofu? Now what happens when wal mart cant provide fried chicken, hamburgers, hot dogs, moon pies, and cokes to all your red blooded neighbors?

You're making a lot of amusing assumptions about me, which I think proves my point: you don't know me, which is why you resort to the same dismissive cartoon oversimplification that you do with the rest of the world. Your understanding of how things actually work is so limited, of course you're going to make wild, inaccurate assumptions, because you're so proud of the fact that you're working off of precisely zero information.

I think you've been reminded of this before, but we're not obligated to enable your delusions simply because you have them.