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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 7:50 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2015 at 8:04 am by Nope.)
How many of the Christians on this forum also believe that in certain instances genocide is acceptable?
I am not certain how I would act if society collapsed. Perhaps Drich is correct and I would turn into a homicidal maniac. We do still have people alive(like me) who grew up without things like computers, cell phones and whole foods so I don't think society would fall apart without these things.
It sounds like Drich believes science and technology make society more peaceful. He might have a point. As we are better able to connect to more diverse people, it becomes more difficult to separate people into groups of us and them. When people aren't desperate, they tend to need religion less and countries with fewer religious people tend to be more peaceful. So yeah, I would agree that society is a better place to live when people have access to the benefits of science and technology.
Drich correct me if I am wrong, you believe that things like slavery and genocide are all right in some circumstances. Sex between consenting unmarried adults, especially if they are the same sex, is evil.
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 7:55 am
I think genocide is acceptable against all the people who think genocide is acceptable :p
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 8:23 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2015 at 8:24 am by Ignorant.)
watchamadoodle Wrote:What is good? Here are some ideas:
- environmentalism
- kindness to animals (vegetarianism, etc.)
- education
- income redistribution
- scientific and technological R&D
- stable government
- sensible regulations and laws
- cats ...
I think you may have misunderstood me. By what criteria do you judge that environmentalism is good? What could you substitute for the word "good" which would apply in a consistent way to "education is [good]" and "income redistribution is [good]" and "genocide is not [good]" and "god is not [good]" in such a way that they all mean good?
In other words, if both environmentalism and education are good, then there must have at least that one aspect in common. What is that aspect? What does it mean to say that some thing is good? Does it mean "I like environmentalism"? Does it mean "Everyone should like environmentalism"? Etc. What do you mean by it?
(February 23, 2015 at 7:55 am)robvalue Wrote: I think genocide is acceptable against all the people who think genocide is acceptable :p
Ha! Doesn't that include you? =)
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 8:36 am
No, I made the rule so it doesn't apply to me.
That's how these things seem to go.
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 9:14 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2015 at 9:23 am by watchamadoodle.)
(February 22, 2015 at 11:44 pm)Drich Wrote: (February 22, 2015 at 5:18 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: This discussion of Nazi's reminds me of the Nuremberg defense. Christians ignore their personal sense of morality to follow the superior morality of God - "orders are orders".
On the others hand, God's absolute morality is presented so ambiguously in the Bible that it becomes relative morality. Every Christian is forced to guess based on his/her own instinctual morality.
Do you have examples of either claim?
Homosexuality is an example of "orders are orders". Many Christians claim to see nothing wrong with homosexuality from their personal moral perspective, but they oppose homosexuality because they believe God opposes homosexuality.
The 40,000 Christian denominations is an example of the ambiguity of the Holy Bible, Holy Spirit, Holy Tradition, etc.
(February 23, 2015 at 8:23 am)Ignorant Wrote: I think you may have misunderstood me. By what criteria do you judge that environmentalism is good? What could you substitute for the word "good" which would apply in a consistent way to "education is [good]" and "income redistribution is [good]" and "genocide is not [good]" and "god is not [good]" in such a way that they all mean good?
In other words, if both environmentalism and education are good, then there must have at least that one aspect in common. What is that aspect? What does it mean to say that some thing is good? Does it mean "I like environmentalism"? Does it mean "Everyone should like environmentalism"? Etc. What do you mean by it?
Unlike Catholicism that makes an imaginary being, God, the ground of all good, I claim that each person is a ground of good. We have discussions, elections, etc. to unify our personalized notions of good when necessary for collective action.
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 9:43 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2015 at 9:48 am by Nope.)
Quote:Do you have examples of either claim?
Quote:Homosexuality is an example of "orders are orders". Many Christians claim to see nothing wrong with homosexuality from their personal moral perspective, but they oppose homosexuality because they believe God opposes homosexuality.
The 40,000 Christian denominations is an example of the ambiguity of the Holy Bible, Holy Spirit, Holy Tradition, etc.
On this thread, Drich has said that under some circumstances, genocide is good. On other threads, he made a similar defense about slavery. Many Christians would strongly disagree with him. Yet, he has used the same bible as those of his faith who would be shocked at his statements. He strongly thinks that his interpretation is correct. The problem is that the bible can be used to both defend some very horrible actions and to inspire people to do very good things. For a book sanctioned by a supposedly all powerful, all knowing god, it is surprisingly confusing about what is moral and what is not.
So, what do you think about Drich's statements, Ignorant? Do you agree with them? Do you believe that under some circumstances genocide is acceptable? Do you think that sex between consenting unmarried adults is worse than drowning a large portion of humanity?
Slightly off topics, but thank you to the Christians who have answered this thread. I like to debate but the discussion is boring if we all agree with one another.
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 9:46 am
I think one of my earlier memes is appropriate for this situation:
![[Image: gq5eh.jpg]](https://i.imgflip.com/gq5eh.jpg)
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 11:09 am
(February 23, 2015 at 7:55 am)robvalue Wrote: I think genocide is acceptable against all the people who think genocide is acceptable :p Opposition to intolerance is not intolerant.
Sum ergo sum
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 11:11 am
(February 23, 2015 at 11:09 am)Ben Davis Wrote: (February 23, 2015 at 7:55 am)robvalue Wrote: I think genocide is acceptable against all the people who think genocide is acceptable :p Opposition to intolerance is not intolerant.
I prefer the Hirsi Ali quote, "Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice."
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Christians, Prove Your God Is Good
February 23, 2015 at 12:08 pm
watchamadoodle Wrote:Unlike Catholicism that makes an imaginary being, God, the ground of all good, I claim that each person is a ground of good. We have discussions, elections, etc. to unify our personalized notions of good when necessary for collective action.
Hmm. Still don't know what you mean by the word "good", but I appreciate your attempt at describing a position of the Catholic tradition. If there are personalized notions of "goodness", what is yours? What is it about a thing, an act, whatever, that when you observe it or consider it, you make the judgment that it is good. WHAT is it? What do you actually DISCUSS in order to unify your personalized notions for collective actions? So far, it doesn't seem like you discuss goodness at all. It seems that there is some mistaken and implicit understanding that we all mean the same thing when we say the word good. For people who so readily could judge that something as silly as god is so obviously not good, I expected to see a robust description of what "good" means. If you don't, then what the heck is actually being said in this thread?
And just FYI, Catholic teaching regarding ethics and morality begins anthropologically, i.e. it begins with goodness in human beings and the things they observe and do and encounter. If you are happy beating up straw men, you are certainly free to keep right on doing that. But, if you want an actual rational exercise, maybe you could try and formulate what you mean by the word "good" or "goodness".
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