(March 10, 2015 at 4:39 am)bennyboy Wrote: The problem is that generations of indiscriminately bombing brown people has made them mad. So has stealing their land and giving it to their religious enemies. The Persian countries in particular have a history of poetry, art, and wisdom that is rooted as strongly in their psyches as Islam is. I think Iran is likely to be one of the first countries to go completely secular.

I disagree with this apologist attitude.

If it were true, why isn't there such pervasive terrorism in Vietnam, or in Southeast Asia as a whole? There might be some but nowhere near the same degree. That region was bombed to Fuck in the Vietnam war.

Also the Muslim world might be angry at America, but what does kidnapping and raping Yazidi girls, or stoning local unveiled women, have to do with hating the West?

Some people say its poorer western Muslims who are more likely to become radicalized.... Yet Jihadi John was a successful university graduate, hardly underprivileged.

No. It's the doctrine, and hardly a warped version of it when you take it literally. I actually agree, Islam has had wonderful moments in history, beautiful art and culture, but to pretend it doesn't have a dark side is disingenuous.

(March 9, 2015 at 8:29 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: The Japanese were shocked into changing their way of thinking as a result of getting nuked. Not to say it would be the same for Arabs but it's possible.

This comes up every once in a while since 9/11.

It's wrong out of several reasons. Japan was a highly industrialised rich nation. And most importantly, it had a government to negotiate terms and a highly ornaised army to surrender. At that time, they already knew they had lost the war. From the japanese standpoint, the only thng left was to get honorable terms and as far as I'm informed they pretty much got what they bargained for. Which was for the emperor staying untouchable. And that's what happened. Mc Arthur made sure of that, sweeping under the carpet every accusation against Horohito during the insuing trials.

Same goes for Germany, since that comes up also when talking about the Middle Eastern situation. Germany was highly industrialised, technological - in some aspects anyway - more advanced than the allies and part of the Western culture.

One cannot compare a war with clear cut frontlines to the situation of today.

(March 10, 2015 at 2:03 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: I truly too wonder, when would all atheists become Muslims and finally see the truth..

When you show some evidence that it's not goat fucking bullshit.

(March 10, 2015 at 4:39 am)bennyboy Wrote: I think you guys are showing an especial bigotry. First of all, historically, the growth of Islam was responsible for both great peace and great intellectual and cultural advancement. Islam has also traditionally been much more tolerant of Christianity than vice versa. Overall, it probably is, even today.

The problem is that generations of indiscriminately bombing brown people has made them mad. So has stealing their land and giving it to their religious enemies. The Persian countries in particular have a history of poetry, art, and wisdom that is rooted as strongly in their psyches as Islam is. I think Iran is likely to be one of the first countries to go completely secular.

From a Geo-Political standpoint, I will point out that Islamic countries have become worse because of the situation which led them there.

Iran was a secular democracy; the President at the time nationalized the Oil (which belonged to Britain), Britain and the USA carried out a coup-de-tat which led to his overthrowment and replacement with the Shah.

The Shah was better than Ayatollah Khomeni, but he fucked up because there was great economic inequality. Islam was used as a back-drop and cultural defense, and Islam rose to power.

Think about that. Iran was a secular democracy. If the 1953 Coup-De-Tat had never happened, then Iran would not be Islamic as it is today.

Iran does have a lot of Atheists though; the youth in Iran are most certainly Secular.

Afghanistan is an example. The Soviets invaded, and the USA funded the terrorist groups in Afghanistan, which was a mistake because they basically armed these terrorists and helped them gain power.

Had the Soviets not invaded, Afghanistan would be more secular.



Iraq was also better at the time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AajPxROvcTA

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(March 10, 2015 at 4:39 am)bennyboy Wrote: I think you guys are showing an especial bigotry. First of all, historically, the growth of Islam was responsible for both great peace and great intellectual and cultural advancement. Islam has also traditionally been much more tolerant of Christianity than vice versa. Overall, it probably is, even today.

The problem is that generations of indiscriminately bombing brown people has made them mad. So has stealing their land and giving it to their religious enemies. The Persian countries in particular have a history of poetry, art, and wisdom that is rooted as strongly in their psyches as Islam is. I think Iran is likely to be one of the first countries to go completely secular.

Eh one part is wrong.

Islam was not responsible for peace. It was spread by the sword and the Islamic conquests were complete blood-baths. It was not peaceful And then we the Armenian genocide...

(March 10, 2015 at 4:55 pm)TheMessiah Wrote: Had the Soviets not invaded, Afghanistan would be more secular.

Or would it? It's always well to remember that everything had a reason. In the case of the Soviet invasion it was the secular government (not very likeable either) fighting against Islamic extremists and calling the Soviets for help, according to a treaty they had with them.

Quote: In June 1975, militants from the Jamiat Islami party attempted to overthrow the government. In 1978, the Taraki government initiated a series of reforms, including a radical modernization of the traditional Islamic civil society.[27] Between April 1978 and the Soviet Intervention of December 1979, thousands of prisoners, perhaps as many as 27,000, were executed. Large parts of the country went into open rebellion. The Afghan government, having secured a treaty in December 1978 that allowed them to call on Soviet forces, repeatedly requested the introduction of troops in Afghanistan in the first half of 1979. They requested Soviet troops to provide security and to assist in the fight against the mujahideen rebels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

So, reduced to it's bare bones it's the usual Cold War clash. With the West arming and training everyone who fought the Soviets. Without knowing or caring who these groups actually were. And the media fed us, that's how I remember it as the 16 year old, which I was in 1979, abundant tales about the brave freedom fighters against the evil empire.

hmm, it will probably take about 100-150 years, unless someone nukes them like chas mentioned, but don't nuke them now, I still live there
2 days ago, I was talking to a guy who wanted to beat another guy for being gay, thats the middle fucking east right now.... ugh.

Ever wonder why africa and the middle east are so fucked up all the time ? cuz that part of the world services the rest of the world(mainly the west) best in its current state of poverty and ignorance. No one is gonna help them, and Angelina Jolie's good hearted attempts of helping are meaningless and not gonna make any change.

(March 10, 2015 at 6:47 pm)Marsellus Wallace Wrote: 2 days ago, I was talking to a guy who wanted to beat another guy for being gay, thats the middle fucking east right now.... ugh.

And that of course never happens in the West. Unthinkable.

(March 9, 2015 at 3:43 pm)TheMessiah Wrote: It's a bold question, I know. But let's talk long term; in 100 years time, or even 500 years, realistically, how Atheistic would the Middle-East be?

Islam is younger than Chrsitianity, and look how long Christianity has had a hold on society. Islam is practically still in the middle ages, culturally, whereas Christian culture has changed with the passing of time (evident from the myriad interpretations of scripture and different denominations).

(March 10, 2015 at 6:50 pm)abaris Wrote:

(March 10, 2015 at 6:47 pm)Marsellus Wallace Wrote: 2 days ago, I was talking to a guy who wanted to beat another guy for being gay, thats the middle fucking east right now.... ugh.

And that of course never happens in the West. Unthinkable.

not as much and not as extreme. you go to jail for being gay here.

(March 10, 2015 at 6:50 pm)Sionnach Wrote:

(March 9, 2015 at 3:43 pm)TheMessiah Wrote: It's a bold question, I know. But let's talk long term; in 100 years time, or even 500 years, realistically, how Atheistic would the Middle-East be?

Islam is younger than Chrsitianity, and look how long Christianity has had a hold on society. Islam is practically still in the middle ages, culturally, whereas Christian culture has changed with the passing of time (evident from the myriad interpretations of scripture and different denominations).

Eh, the only reason Christianity has more interpretations is because The Bible is more open to interpretation. The Qu'ran is not, it's shorter, more direct and claims to be the word of God --- it doesn't have the ''benefit'' of being more interpret-able.

Christianity also morphed with the enlightenment era, Islam had it's chance then.

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On the Middle East:

I loved my holiday to Dubai. I went there on holiday and I was like ''Fuck, this place is next to Saudi Arabia?'' --- Dubai is strict, but nowhere near as strict as Iraq or Saudi Arabia, it has to tone down it's law because it needs people to come on holiday. Dubai has a lot of nasty laws but none of them are really enforced in the UAE.

Lebanon is very, very Westernized. So is Israel.

Aside from that, the Middle-East is a shit-hole, putting it lightly.