I don't wanna wait till next week!

(March 17, 2015 at 10:52 pm)whateverist Wrote: Well it seems to me that the answer was "maybe you're right, perhaps it isn't essential". But somehow I don't think you feel that way yourself, daver.

I will respond using the title of Abelard's most famous book, "Sic et Non."
And I do so not as a convenient "sleight of hand" or "cop out," but totally comfortable and accepting of the tension between the two.

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(March 18, 2015 at 7:47 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Okay, so you're saying that the question is "Can Christians explain why their god is good without resorting to "Because the bible says"?". I'd suggest that more informative answers (and a broader range of them) will result if we cut out the value-ladened 'Can't you do better...' approach and simply challenge Christians to justify the 'goodness' of their version of the Christian God. Some Christians simply won't be able to cut out the bible whereas others will. Also the justifications will provide us with some pertinent discussion topics. Whether that takes the form of 'bridge-building' (e.g. "I just want to understand where you're coming from...") or a more adversarial scenario (e.g. "That's not 'good' because..") will depend entirely on the people having the discussions.

Sounds "good" to me. But how do you cut out "the value-ladened approach" while discussing "goodness?"

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(March 18, 2015 at 8:07 am)robvalue Wrote: I would rephrase the question to say, "Can you show your God wants us to have maximum wellbeing and minimum suffering?"

@#$!%!, just as I thought I was beginning to understand the first question!

Maximum well-being and minimum suffering is certainly what WE want, but by showing us a bloody-beaten body on a cross we get a more honest idea about what life is really like for the majority of humans. That reality is the one we have a problem accepting, and so we seek a false way (or ways) out...or so it seems from this spec of infinity.

(March 18, 2015 at 5:37 pm)daver49 Wrote: Sounds "good" to me. But how do you cut out "the value-ladened approach" while discussing "goodness?"

You missed my point. When gathering information, it's best to ask questions in a format that doesn't contain any implications of value-judgments. That way, you avoid introducing bias or derails with poorly formed and/or leading questions. Challenging people 'to do better' is guaranteed to introduce bias, if people even bother to respond to such a question.

If God was a human, he would be viewed as the most evil and cruel fascist dictator in history.

To say that this changes because he is not human, even though everything he does still affects humans in the same way, is special pleading.

It must be really hard work trying to find ways to explain that an obviously evil entity is in fact concerned with our wellbeing by argueing black is white or trying to muddy the waters so much that we forget what we are talking about. I'm lucky I don't have to worry about such a cretin being a real phenomenon.

(March 19, 2015 at 7:23 am)Ben Davis Wrote:

(March 18, 2015 at 5:37 pm)daver49 Wrote: Sounds "good" to me. But how do you cut out "the value-ladened approach" while discussing "goodness?"

You missed my point. When gathering information, it's best to ask questions(daver49 emphasis) in a format that doesn't contain any implications of value-judgments. That way, you avoid introducing bias or derails with poorly formed and/or leading questions. Challenging people 'to do better' is guaranteed to introduce bias, if people even bother to respond to such a question.

Ben, see how you made a value statement in your clarification? It is a Catch 22. Bias appears to me to be inherent to our identity. We organize our lives and actions based on practices and principles we have personally deemed to be beneficial/better/best/good/etc,. Each of us is doing it now as we volley back and forth. Can you ask a question that does not have a hidden bias in it? What is the basic bias in the act of questioning?

(March 19, 2015 at 11:55 am)daver49 Wrote: Can you ask a question that does not have a hidden bias in it?

Yes. It's trivially simple.

"Christians, please can you show how you support the claim that your God is good?"

A different example is:

"How are you?"

The question asked in this thread is pretty stacked against the theist. We on the other side don't accept even the existence of gods. So it seems a little disingenuous to bicker over their attributes. To address it at all, I suppose we could reword it as:

"Assuming there is a god, what makes you think it is benevolent rather than malevolent?"

Of course, what really can we expect in reply except: a) because the bible tells us so; or b) because He tells me so; or c) because I feel it in my bones.

Not truly accepting the premise that there is a god, it is difficult to know what would count as a reasonable account of ones attributes.

How about, "If the god of the bible was to judge himself by his own standards, what would he say?"

Or, "If god was a human, and did all the things described in the bible, what would you think of that human?"

(March 20, 2015 at 7:39 am)Ben Davis Wrote:

(March 19, 2015 at 11:55 am)daver49 Wrote: Can you ask a question that does not have a hidden bias in it?

Yes. It's trivially simple.

"Christians, please can you show how you support the claim that your God is good?"

A different example is:

"How are you?"

Ok, those are good examples I can use. The fact that you even ask a question implies that you lack knowledge about the thing you are asking about. So, by "lacking" you have already judged the situation for yourself. You lack knowledge about "how Christians support the claim..." You lack knowledge about How I am. In both cases you have found yourself to be less than you want to be. You want have "More knowledge." If you want more of anything, you have judged yourself as not having enough of it. Yes, it is trivially simple.

"You Want the Truth? You Can't handle the Truth!
-Col. Nathan R. Jessup (Jack Nicholson)

I find this substance-less, vacuous wheel-spinning, somewhat-eastern-sounding mysticism stuff even more grating than the good old fire and brimstone shit.