You can say their truth is undeniable, but as I said, that is naive or arrogant. Human brains are fallible. Extremely so. Even your memory of whatever events you are talking about is going to be imperfect, and indeed they may not have happened at all. Not saying that last option is likely, but it's possible. Memory is very unreliable.

If you want to just say you can't be wrong, that's up to you, but it's no more convincing. It means you're not recognising your limitations.

(March 20, 2015 at 10:44 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:59 am)robvalue Wrote: We're not capable of absolute certainty, and to try and announce that you can never be mistaken or deceived, even by your own brain, is either incredibly naive or arrogant.

You probably have not have had any mystical experiences. They come with a level of certainty simply undeniable and cannot be dismissed by those that have them. . .

Tripping is mystical. I hope that counts because if it does I have a doozy for you! The experience was so mystical I documented it while it was happening.
My hand got all numb and everything was turning green and I saw 30 cats come out of one wall and go into another. Oh, and the old wooden floors of the 100 year old farm house I was in, were biting my feet. And a jet plane landed in the front yard.

Ahh yes.. truly mystical indeed!

(March 20, 2015 at 10:44 am)ChadWooters Wrote: You probably have not have had any mystical experiences. They come with a level of certainty simply undeniable and cannot be dismissed by those that have them. I have had two such experiences in which everyday consciousness peels away to reveal a more salient reality.

And so says the vast majority of schizophrenics. They are also absolutely certain about their experiences. Hell, their descriptions sound identical to yours.

As outsiders, how do we go about telling the difference between your above described experience, and those of schizophrenics?

Quote:That said, I do not believe that the so-called "soft still voice" experiences fall into that category.

Yeah, it's our subconscious.

(March 20, 2015 at 7:59 am)robvalue Wrote: This is a regular problem I see with theists. They claim absolute certainty about things. "It was definitely the Holy Spirit."

Religion seems to encourage and revel in delusion, and to treat what would normally be symptoms of mental illness as a virtue.

Fucking bullshit.

Unfortunately it also treats it as demonic possession requiring abusive (and presumably expensive) exorcism rituals...

Link

I dunno know about you guys but, I'll listen when they can come up with more then bad assertions that it the holy ghost

(March 20, 2015 at 10:44 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:59 am)robvalue Wrote: We're not capable of absolute certainty, and to try and announce that you can never be mistaken or deceived, even by your own brain, is either incredibly naive or arrogant.

You probably have not have had any mystical experiences. They come with a level of certainty simply undeniable and cannot be dismissed by those that have them. I have had two such experiences in which everyday consciousness peels away to reveal a more salient reality. That said, I do not believe that the so-called "soft still voice" experiences fall into that category.

Those are called delusions, Chad. See a shrink.

(March 20, 2015 at 10:44 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:59 am)robvalue Wrote: We're not capable of absolute certainty, and to try and announce that you can never be mistaken or deceived, even by your own brain, is either incredibly naive or arrogant.

You probably have not have had any mystical experiences. They come with a level of certainty simply undeniable and cannot be dismissed by those that have them. I have had two such experiences in which everyday consciousness peels away to reveal a more salient reality. That said, I do not believe that the so-called "soft still voice" experiences fall into that category.

I, too, have had moments of clarity, almost as if "everyday consciousness peels away to reveal a more salient reality." Who hasn't? But I'm not so arrogant as to imagine that a god (or is it one third of a god?) was speaking to me.

When I was a Christian and somewhere between the ages of 16-18, I remember in a moment of desperation asking God to show me a sign---anything that would point me in the right direction---and while taking a piss in a restaurant urinal, I looked up, and the scales seemed to fall from my eyes as I read the words on a literal sign before me:

All employees must wash their hands before returning to work.

It was God! That's the sort of experience Chad calls "mystical."

" How often does the holy spirit talk to you?" ......Don't crazy Koo Koo, people hear voices too?....Never have I 'heard' the voice of GOD...inside my mind...I dunnoh, maby if I imagined it, but I never have!

(March 20, 2015 at 7:04 am)TubbyTubby Wrote: "I only am sure that the Holy Spirit has spoken to me at least once, at most twice. The time when I am almost certain the Holy Spirit spoke to me was when He told me to get my mom's boots for her. I know that it was the Holy Spirit because, unlike a regular thought, I felt a "quickening". My body felt paralyzed of some sort, and the "thought" just shot right at me at full speed. 

Speaking of existential problems when the Holy Spirit chooses to intervene. Getting one's lazy ass out of the couch to fetch mom's boots. That's what I call a life and death situation.